Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

Yes, but only if you have an irrational infinity or an infinity divorced from reason and morality. There is no contradictions in an all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing, all-good being we call God.

All philosophy is based in Aristotle's Law of Identity: A is A. This is all to often dismissed as tautology, but it's not. Therefore, infinity is a boundless, endless amount of something. It has no limit and no end, though it may have a beginning. For example, the set of natural whole positive numbers begins in "1" but it's infinite. The set of all natural numbers runs from (-infinity, +infinity), it has no beginning and no end.

If you remove half of all the natural numbers from the set, say the odd ones, you're left with an infinite amount of numbers. You'll find the part you removed is also infinite.

Of course, numbers are a concept and have no concrete existence. If you could gather all that exists, say all particles reduced to their elementary form, you'd have a very, very, very large amount, but it would be finite in number. Given enough time and the right tools, you could even count every particle in existence (as far as we know).

When you introduce things like gods, you give concrete form to infinite amounts. but the same rules apply. The one true god Malek has infinite power. If he gave half his power away to anyone, he'd still have infinite power, and so would the recipient of his half of the power.

So maybe a trillion trillion trillion trillion....trillion gods exist, have always existed, and every last one of that infinity of deities is all powerful. Infinite power would be divided among them, and each one would have infinite power.

This would mean A is non-A, a portion of the whole is the whole,, and Aristotle would be most displeased.

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What you seem to be missing is twofold. First Dementer is the creator of all these other gods. Second, if Dementer is all-powerful why create these other all-powerful gods. It seems that Dementer is not all-knowing.

Demeter is not a man that She may be put to the test.

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Aha, you are close to getting it I think.

I got it. You're the one who seems confused about names, nouns and ontological statements.

Quote: FrGamble

LOL, there is A LOT we can know about God but we can never hope to know or understand everything. He is always greater. In fact if you think you have completely understood God than you can be sure that is not God.

Oooh, stop it you beguiler, you're trying
to trick me with your meaningless words.
The point is, when you make up a god,
like you have, it's exhausting work to have
to constantly come up with fake details
about him. So you resort to just glossing
over the details with silly sayings like:

"God works in mysterious ways", or "If you
understand god it's not really god". And
the idiots buy it because a non answer
requires no extra thought on their part.
The whole point to religion is to remove
the process of thought from the believer,
he can relax in the knowledge that the
priests know what they're doing. Mark
Twain called that the biggest joke mankind
ever played on itself.

Quote: FrGamble

LOL, there is A LOT we can know about God but we can never hope to know or understand everything. He is always greater. In fact if you think you have completely understood God than you can be sure that is not God.

All that exists of Jehovah is what has been described, depicted, told, and so on by people. No doubt no one can practically learn it all, as that would include intangible things like "what little Tommy Tompkins out in Podunk thought about "God" yesterday at church." But it is a finite set of existents. Though it keeps growing, eventually it will end.

Quote: Nareed

All philosophy is based in Aristotle's Law of Identity: A is A. This is all to often dismissed as tautology, but it's not. Therefore, infinity is a boundless, endless amount of something. It has no limit and no end, though it may have a beginning.

Actually infinity has no beginning but your point is well made and agreed upon as you say below:

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For example, the set of natural whole positive numbers begins in "1" but it's infinite. The set of all natural numbers runs from (-infinity, +infinity), it has no beginning and no end.

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If you remove half of all the natural numbers from the set, say the odd ones, you're left with an infinite amount of numbers. You'll find the part you removed is also infinite.

This is essential to recognizing the impossibility of an infinite regress.

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Of course, numbers are a concept and have no concrete existence. If you could gather all that exists, say all particles reduced to their elementary form, you'd have a very, very, very large amount, but it would be finite in number. Given enough time and the right tools, you could even count every particle in existence (as far as we know).

Very true, are you then ready to concede that the universe is finite?

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When you introduce things like gods, you give concrete form to infinite amounts. but the same rules apply.

This is where things go wrong. God is not a concrete form or a person as you mentioned in your earlier post. God is not an infinite collection of things or made up by an infinite number of parts. God is infinite in His spiritual being. He is above and beyond time and space, I feel we have covered this before. God is not a being, but rather is being. You can't have two, much less a trillion infinite all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good beings or as you say A is non-A. I know we have been conditioned to see God as a big old guy in the sky with a beard, and while that image can be helpful, in deeper discussions like this it is completely unhelpful. God transcends and is the true definition of infinite without the contradictions we see when we apply the quality infinitude to concepts like numbers and even more clearly when we try to apply it to actual things.

Quote: Evenbob

The whole point to religion is to remove
the process of thought from the believer,

It is exactly the opposite. Religion fills us with wonder and inspires in us scientific inquiry, beautiful works of art, and the deepest philosophical questions. I think you are talking about atheism which stunts thought by just declaring everything ultimately meaningless and accidental. Atheism followed to its logical conclusion is to say these things ultimately are not worth thinking about; there is no real truth, no objective good, and the best thing you can do is stay warm and well fed. Disgusting if you ask me and removes the process of thought from the non-believer. Thank God I don't think anyone, especially the good and smart atheists like we find on this board really take it that seriously.

Quote: FrGamble

God is not a being, but rather is being.

This is where you're confused. There very
well may be a collective consciousness
in the universe, that is the universe. It's
why yogi's sit in meditation for 20 years
trying to become one with it. But it's not
a personal force, it's not a god. You
are a part of it, but you can't pray to
it because it has no center, it has no way
of interacting personally with you. When
you pray all you're doing is talking to yourself.
The best you can do is try and live in harmony
with it. Or not. It doesn't matter.

Quote: Evenbob

There very
well may be a collective consciousness
in the universe, that is the universe. It's
why yogi's sit in meditation for 20 years
trying to become one with it. But it's not
a personal force, it's not a god. You
are a part of it, but you can't pray to
it because it has no center, it has no way
of interacting personally with you.

Enter YHWH and the person of Jesus Christ.

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The best you can do is try and live in harmony
with it. Or not. It doesn't matter.

It very much does matter.

Quote: FrGamble

Very true, are you then ready to concede that the universe is finite?

Very likely. And so?

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God is not a concrete form or a person as you mentioned in your earlier post. God is not an infinite collection of things or made up by an infinite number of parts. God is infinite in His spiritual being. He is above and beyond time and space,

A figment of the imagination isn't limited by anything other than imagination. I'm fond of saying such as "The Universe is not stranger than we imagine, it's stranger than we can imagine," because they illustrate the limits of imagination perfectly.

So does the conception of "God." See how it can only be defined as what he's not, not what he is. And on the part of what he actually is, we move to unexplained and unexplainable, to be frank, babble.

That's the limit of human imagination. The one true, special, unique, etc "God" is a pagan deity, differentiated only by the unexplained and unexplainable aspects we never see to get around to. It's like worshipping a black box.

Quote: Nareed

Very likely. And so?

Had a beginning.

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So does the conception of "God." See how it can only be defined as what he's not, not what he is.

Very true, this is the sure path the Church Fathers called the via negativa. It is much easier to say what God is not than to try to say what God is.

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That's the limit of human imagination.

I think it was St. Anselm who defined God as, "That which nothing greater can be thought."

Quote: FrGamble

Had a beginning.

Infinite <> eternal

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It is much easier to say what God is not than to try to say what God is.

There is one true god Gaia and literally trillion trillions of things that are not Her. You'd never finish.

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I think it was St. Anselm who defined God as, "That which nothing greater can be thought."

Rey is God!!