Simple question?

Quote: petroglyph

The church and the drug dealer are doing the same thing to her.

Exactly. Replace one addiction with
another. I'm watching Ray Donovan
which is about three brothers who
were abused by a priest when they
were kids. It's fiction of course, but
it's still very interesting. They end
up killing the priest, and another
priest finds out and they beat him
up. He screams at them that they
are excommunicated from the Church,
and this upsets them greatly. That's
how deep the hook is set.

When they kill the priest who ruined
their lives, I wonder how many in
the home audience cheered. I know
I did..

Quote: Evenbob

Exactly. Replace one addiction with
another. I'm watching Ray Donovan
which is about three brothers who
were abused by a priest when they
were kids. It's fiction of course, but
it's still very interesting. They end
up killing the priest, and another
priest finds out and they beat him
up. He screams at them that they
are excommunicated from the Church,
and this upsets them greatly. That's
how deep the hook is set.

When they kill the priest who ruined
their lives, I wonder how many in
the home audience cheered. I know
I did..

How many of those sexually abused kids go to become abusers themselves? It alters the normal neural passageways in the brain to become a sex object of your protector, and no amount of money or counseling will get that out of their head. It's always going to be there. Maybe 30 years later it won't be as intense, but it is still there, just waiting to pop up front and center, during who knows what. Once that child is altered permanently, the original has been murdered.

It's permanent damage. And study's show, very often the molested become molesters.

I support the death penalty for child rapists when the evidence is overwhelming on the first occurrence . On the second occasion with just good evidence. Pedophilia as we all know is incurable. I also consider organ harvesting from these abusers. No sensationalism, just do it.

Quote: petroglyph

I support the death penalty for child rapists when the evidence is overwhelming on the first occurrence . On the second occasion with just good evidence. Pedophilia as we all know is incurable. I also consider organ harvesting from these abusers. No sensationalism, just do it.

I'm with you in spirit, but...

I've (feel like, anyway) gained an awareness that appears to be present in your post. "It alters neural pathways". I believe (can pretty much say 'I know') that true psychopathy is exceedingly rare; how many of these "monsters" are really untreated victims? How much of their sickness is imposed vs a trait of their natural behavior?

With ya in spirit, and I feel I believe I know what you're saying when you say "that child was murdered" and this stuff is "incurable". But (cue FrG), the idea that salvation does not exist seems almost sick in itself. Is a rape victim always to be "soiled"? Is a bigot always to be "of hate"? The idea you hold that I still kinda agree with (but am trying to change) in itself seems to establish a permanence that is not only unfair, but possibly incredibly damaging.

I don't have the answer, but as much as I love it, I don't think rage is the appropriate response. $0.02.

Quote: Face

the idea that salvation does not exist seems almost sick in itself.

sal·va·tion
/salˈvāSH(ə)n/
1.
preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.

I dunno. The Japanese penal system
at one time consisted of the death
penalty for any crime. Steal a loaf
a bread, you're dead. Speedy trial,
the next day you're gone. The result
was an almost crime free society.

But they believed in reincarnation.
Once you get into the soppy god
religions, that's when things get
strange. Now we have to tolerate
all kinds of sick behavior because
we have to 'forgive' everybody.

Quote: Evenbob

Now we have to tolerate
all kinds of sick behavior because
we have to 'forgive' everybody.

It's not about tolerance. What petro said was a layman's version of truth. Flesh your offered stance out to its end and we'd be killing abused children, as they almost without exception grow to be damaged individuals with some level of the abuse as part of their identity.

The hangman's noose has its place, but it's no panacea. I'd rather prevent a problem than pick up the pieces.

Quote: petroglyph

You've re written my post very closely using different words.

If this young addict wasn't so convinced there was a god answer to her sickness, she would enroll in a medically based titration or substance maintenance plan.

Why blame the creation of narcotics on a devil? That would be, "some other god before him" no? The church and the drug dealer are doing the same thing to her.

You don't have any idea of what you are talking about. It is her faith in God that continues to give her the courage to seek the medical and psychological help she needs. I can't believe you would think that myself or any faithful person would ever keep someone from the help they need? That is sick and I'm offended. Why cannot God use the amazing gifts of others and the blessings of the medical field to get help. If your first post didn't prove it, this one did - you are railing against something that only exists as a straw man you have created in your mind.

The drug dealer is killing her and is doing evil. The Church is getting her the help she needs for body, mind, and soul. How are these the same thing?

Quote: Face

It's not about tolerance. What petro said was a layman's version of truth. Flesh your offered stance out to its end and we'd be killing abused children, as they almost without exception grow to be damaged individuals with some level of the abuse as part of their identity.

The hangman's noose has its place, but it's no panacea. I'd rather prevent a problem than pick up the pieces.

Excellent post, Face.

Quote: Face

The hangman's noose has its place, but it's no panacea.

In some cases it is. If you're in
authority over kids, like a priest
of scoutmaster is, the death
penalty is not too strong a
punishment. I guarantee these
perverts would think twice before
molesting children.

Quote: FrGamble

... It is her faith in God that continues to give her the courage to seek the medical and psychological help she needs.

It's more like her indoctrination into a myth has her trapped into thinking something else has power over her addiction. It's been proven enough to me that there can be benefits of one addict helping another to give NA a pass. Narcotics are a terrible merciless poison. Someone willing to hold someones hand and encourage them to get medical assistance makes it easier. But no one else will get her clean, unless she wants to. Not Yaweh, NA, the church, not even prison. Just because benevolent groups have been shown to at times bring positive benefits to fighting this scourge, is not proof of Yaweh.

But it's interesting when you get right down to it, is why the people in those groups want to help.

Quote:

I can't believe you would think that myself or any faithful person would ever keep someone from the help they need?

The problem here is, you think you have all the correct answers, others need not apply. And it always circles back to a straw god. How many people do you think got into drugs because of their church upbringing? >1 I'll wager. How many messed up housewives get started on "momma's little helpers", Zanax can be the trigger.

Quote:

That is sick and I'm offended.

It's not about you.

Quote:

Why cannot God use the amazing gifts of others and the blessings of the medical field to get help

That's a bit circular don't ya think? The point here is for the woman to get her life back, be it a twelve step, a kick in the nuts, or a medical treatment plan with counseling. Bad drugs are bad, but they aren't mystical. If addiction is a disease rather than a troubled soul, society needs to look at it like a medical problem. You are assigning godlike power to an inanimate substance, that's been used for thousands of years longer than the bible story existed.

Quote:

If your first post didn't prove it, this one did - you are railing against something that only exists as a straw man you have created in your mind.

It's not my straw man.

Quote:

The drug dealer is killing her and is doing evil. The Church is getting her the help she needs for body, mind, and soul. How are these the same thing?

Everything's evil, which is convenient for the church's business model. If your church is getting her the medical help she needs, good on them. And someone to help talk her through getting clean is hugely beneficial, if that's what she wants. I see women more prone to this need than men, btw. You see God in that picture, I see people doing things for their own benefit and putting a handle on it.

Quote: Evenbob

In some cases it is. If you're in
authority over kids, like a priest
of scoutmaster is, the death
penalty is not too strong a
punishment. I guarantee these
perverts would think twice before
molesting children.

Epstein won't be raping anymore young girls, period. He had protection from above like many priests have had and they have no reason to discontinue their behavior.

At the very least, they won't continue their behavior and it will discourage others.

We are watching "Mindhunter" for the second time and the FBI is interviewing Ed Kemper and other mass rapist/killers and it crosses my mind that maybe, these killing could have been prevented if these pervs had an outlet such as legalized brothels.

But for some reason, and I at least partially blame religion, we can't try this approach. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/legal-prostitution-zones-reduce-incidents-of-rape-and_b_58c83be1e4b01d0d473bce8a