Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

It is; He gave everything up for the love of us.

What an evasive answer. What specifically
did god sacrifice. It certainly wasn't
himself/Jesus, that worked out just fine,
as he of course knew it would.

This bothered me 40 years ago and it
bothers me now. God/Jesus gave up
nothing, there was no sacrifice. There
was no permanent loss, which is what
sacrifice is.

Please point out why I'm wrong.

I think you letting the light of the Resurrection blinding you to the sacrifice He endured. It did work out just fine, for Jesus and us, thank God. However I don't know why you seem to think because of that it invalidates the sacrifice.

Quote: Wizard

I think "saved" is not used in the bible but is a term often used by Christians as an adjective to describe a state of grace. They mean saved from a fate in hell.

I think a Christian would argue that the punishment for committing even one sin is eternal separation from god. However, there is a tradition of sacrificing animals in the old testament to put the blame on them for the sin. Why -- I have no idea. This concept is extended in Christianity to Jesus being the scapegoat for all future sin. However, you have to be a believer/follower to get the benefit.

Personally, I much prefer the Catholic paradigm, where your fate is more a product of your actions here on earth than what you profess to believe.

It's my understanding that Christians, by definition, believe that Christ saved us from our sins, both those intentional and those an unavoidable product of living. (sidebar: which is part of the gig; even babies are sinners at birth) So as you've phrased it above, I think it misses the point of Christianity ("the punishment...eternal separation from god") in that, if you are Christian, you are forgiven your sins and will NOT suffer the punishment of a vengeful God. Sort of that the reward for taking that leap of faith is that your sins are gone, and it's endlessly renewed. That's how people can screw others over all week long and show up to church on Sunday and be thought Good and Clean. Rinse and repeat.

I think that we're trying to say the same thing in the end.

Quote: Evenbob

What an evasive answer. What specifically
did god sacrifice. It certainly wasn't
himself/Jesus, that worked out just fine,
as he of course knew it would.

This bothered me 40 years ago and it
bothers me now. God/Jesus gave up
nothing, there was no sacrifice. There
was no permanent loss, which is what
sacrifice is.

Please point out why I'm wrong.

I'm more in line with EB than FrG in this discussion, but yes, Jesus suffered greatly. He was human, with nerve endings, an ego, a personality that developed for 30 years before he began to preach. He lived poor and dirty, with the dregs of society, was humiliated, betrayed, disbelieved, mocked, spat on, flogged, stabbed, and crucified, which is a form of torture by any definition, (nails driven through hands and feet, left to asphyxiate slowly). Whether he was the Son of God, a delusional fool, or something in-between, is almost irrelevant to the question. His life as he knew it was over in a horrible sequence of events. He could have stopped it at any point by recanting; he did not. And it was that willingness to stand by his God unto death despite feeling forsaken by Him that saved us all (those who believe),

The Miracle of the Resurrection is an entirely different segment of the conversation from this. I have heard there are contemporaneous reports (non-Biblical) that verify Jesus lived in that time and place, and was put to death in that manner (Jewish and Roman court records, other accounts). So I accept the historical fact of his existence. Beyond that, I don't know. I don't think God told Jesus more than that somehow, if he allowed himself to be a human sacrifice to his God, he would live on in some manner, and it was part of the test of his faith that he allow the sacrifice to happen.

Quote: FrGamble

I think you letting the light of the Resurrection blinding you to the sacrifice He endured. It did work out just fine, for Jesus and us, thank God. However I don't know why you seem to think because of that it invalidates the sacrifice.

What sacrifice. God/Jesus lived as a human
for awhile, big deal. We live as humans every
fricking day and nobody gives us a pat on the
back for it. Why does god/Jesus get a high five
for hanging out here awhile, the whole premise
is silly. The 'light of the resurrection', that's a
good one. You know I've said there wasn't one.

Again, what did god give up in the Jesus myth,
what did he lose. That's what sacrifice means,
loss. You never answer this because he gave
up nothing, and you know it.

Quote: Evenbob

What sacrifice. God/Jesus lived as a human
for awhile, big deal. We live as humans every
fricking day and nobody gives us a pat on the
back for it. Why does god/Jesus get a high five
for hanging out here awhile, the whole premise
is silly. The 'light of the resurrection', that's a
good one. You know I've said there wasn't one.

Again, what did god give up in the Jesus myth,
what did he lose. That's what sacrifice means,
loss. You never answer this because he gave
up nothing, and you know it.

Well, if you accept that Jesus was the Son of God, then His sacrifice was very analogous to the sacrifice of every father whose son goes to war (against Satan in this case, or the sins of mankind) and is killed in the fighting.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Well, if you accept that Jesus was the Son of God, then His sacrifice was very analogous to the sacrifice of every father whose son goes to war (against Satan in this case, or the sins of mankind) and is killed in the fighting.

Except Jesus WAS god, they are the same
being in the myth. I see no sacrifice that
even warrants a mention, let alone one
that should be lauded. What did god give
up by letting himself die as Jesus. The body
would have died anyway eventually. The way
he was killed was nothing special, it happened
on a daily basis in Roman times.

This has to be a symbolic sacrifice, not to be
taken seriously. As soon as you do, it falls
apart just like every other myth.

Quote: Evenbob

like when a Marine throws himself on a grenade to save his friends.

Quote: EvenBob

What did god give up by letting himself die as Jesus. The body would have died anyway eventually.

but the marine would have died anyway eventually?

Quote: Dalex64

but the marine would have died anyway eventually?

At least his sacrifice while he was
alive was real. He gave up something,
he didn't know he was rising from the
grave 3 days later like god/Jesus did
in the myth.

In researching gods sacrifice on Google,
all I'm running into is long winded
convoluted nonsense. It's like nobody
knows exactly what god gave up in
his sacrifice so they make the issue as
complicated as possible.

Even if Jesus was totally in the dark about
what would happen, that has nothing to do
with the sacrifice of god. It all hinges around
the argument that if god knew the outcome,
and he knows everything, there is no real
sacrifice.

These people I'm reading trying to explain
this have got themselves into quite a pickle.
They're boxed in, every which way they turn.
It's almost like they want to scream at you
'Just trust that it's true and shut up about it!'
lol