Simple question?

Quote: Face

they make no sense, they do not compute, CANNOT compute. I am dying to know how you get passed that. I know it comes off as an insult, and most people can't look past the insult to see the message, but all I can say is it seems like willful ignorance. That you know it can't be right, but you want so badly for it to be right that you just ignore it..

I know exactly what they do, I've seen
them do it. They hold their noses and
suspend their disbelief. They so want
the myth to be true that they'll deceive
themselves into believing anything.

Quote: Nareed

I've never judged anyone by what their ancestors did.

Germany, now, did something rather unusual after WWI: it allowed a full account to be made of all the atrocities, war crimes, crimes against humanity, etc. committed by the Nazis, and explicitly regretted them. It then paid reparations, including a great deal of money and supplies which wound up in the nascent state of Israel.

When the church does this, we can begin to move on.

A small, unfiltered sampling. I was just looking for recent apologies, not offers of reparations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II

Http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/pope-francis-apologizes-for-catholic-churchs-offenses-against-indigenous-peoples_us_559f02aae4b096729155dd59

Http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/world/americas/pope-francis-bolivia-catholic-church-apology.html?referer=&_r=0

Http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/mar/13/catholicism.religion

Quote: Face

I can't think of any other reason, and I am dying to know how you get passed that.

Maybe it is because Catholicism put together the New Testament and for the beginning of Christianity there was no such thing as the NT that we recognize that it is not the golden plates of Mormonism sent down from Heaven supposedly perfect. Muslims believe that the Koran is perfect in every way, even its word choice it is the most beautiful perfect Arabic that could ever be written. Catholicism is not strictly a religion of a book, it is about a person. Judaism I think has a healthy understanding of the Old Testament in recognizing that it is a book of faith inspired by God but not perfect in every way. The same is true about my understanding of the NT. There are contradictions, challenges, and imperfect expressions and cultural influences that are in the NT. Remember that Tradition came before the Bible and well before the letters and Gospels of the NT were collected together. While nothing we teach can go directly against the inspired Word of God written in the Bible we do not believe in what Martin Luther called sola scriptura, meaning "only the Scripture". To use a book only leads to the vastly different interpretations and logical gymnastics our protestant brothers and sisters struggle so heroically against. You need an authoritative interpretation or else you put so much pressure on the words of the page that you will literally tear it apart, remove books, and ignore certain sections hoping in vain that atheists don't see these things or read it. If you grew up Catholic you would most likely still be a believer because the healthy understanding of the role of Scripture would have insulated you from the problems you noticed in it.

Of course you might have still had bad experiences of Christians who were not good examples and that could have done you in too. That by the way is not your fault and that is why your denial is understood by the Lord Jesus and in my opinion not held against you. In the Catechism it talks about the sources of atheism and a big one is the failures of Christians. In my experience when I meet someone who has left the Church it is never because they have some intellectual problem with the teachings of the Church, although that might be the first thing they throw out as the reason why. The real reason comes later and usually involves a mean priest, god forbid an evil one, a member of the choir who was a jerk, or some other sad story of poor examples of Christianity provided by imperfect human beings.

This is again why the example and person of Jesus Christ is really what the Church is ALL about! Knowing Him is the antidote to the weaknesses of the written word and the sinfulness of humanity. You see this and are attracted by the person of Jesus Christ as just about everyone is. If you strip away the Bible and the struggling community of believers you still have Christianity because it is all about HIM! You already see Him as a great moral teacher, but He is so much more. Invite Him into your life as more than a teacher and the inconsistences of the Bible fade away and the sinfulness of His followers doesn't surprise you.

Quote: Dalex64

A small, unfiltered sampling. I was just looking for recent apologies, not offers of reparations.

Some of these apologies fall far short. While I don't think paying reparations is necessary, making things right should be. So for example when John Paul ][ apologized for the church's treatment of women, he did not follow through by incorporating women in the hierarchy. That is necessary if the church pretends to make policies affecting women.

This would be like Germany acknowledging all the evils of the Holocaust, then refusing to admit any Jews into Germany for any reason.

Quote: Nareed

Do you know a system that has not been and cannot be gamed?

Yes.

Quote:

Yes, they are.

You'd be singing a different tune if it were an adoption agency that excluded Catholics, because all things being equal, non-Catholics make better parents.

The thing is that discrimination and prejudice against Catholics in the US is no longer respectable, while that against LGBT still is.

No, they are not. If what you describe happened I would be singing the same tune if an adoption agency excluded blacks or Jews because they thought all things being equal they would not be the best parents.

What you keep missing is that gender is more than the color of your skin. Men and women are complimentary for a reason, they fulfill each other and provide different strengths and weaknesses that help raise children that two men or two women for the most part can't do in the same way. If you knew a child that needed a home and two super loving perfect couples came to you hoping to adopt and one was a male and female couple and the other was a same-sex couple which one would you choose? It is not prejudice to recognize that the heterosexual couple can provide something that the homosexual couple cannot. Please understand me that I am not saying that homosexual couples cannot and do not do a wonderful job in raising children, just like a single mother or grandparents can't do a fantastic job as well.

Quote:

You just seem massively unhappy about this.

I don't know where you are getting this?!? I am happy that homosexual couples have equal rights under the law.

Quote: FrGamble

If you knew a child that needed a home and two super loving perfect couples came to you hoping to adopt and one was a male and female couple and the other was a same-sex couple which one would you choose?

Tradition demands I offer to cut the child in half :)

Seriously, if all else was equal, to whoever applied first.

Quote:

It is not prejudice to recognize that the heterosexual couple can provide something that the homosexual couple cannot.

And it's not prejudice to say the white couple can provide something that the black or Hispanic couple cannot. So an agency excluding black and Hispanic couples is acting in the best interests of the child, right?

Quote:

Please understand me that I am not saying that homosexual couples cannot and do not do a wonderful job in raising children,

You're just saying they shouldn't.

Same difference.

Quote: FrGamble

This is again why the example and person of Jesus Christ is really what the Church is ALL about! Knowing Him is the antidote to the weaknesses of the written word and the sinfulness of humanity.

I will omit the obvious joke about Mr. Peabody and Sherman. And I will omit the even more obvious reason why you're asking the impossible.

Quote:

You see this and are attracted by the person of Jesus Christ as just about everyone is.

There are men I'd attracted to less, many millions even. But in the grand scheme of things, considering the billions of people who have ever existed, he does rank near the bottom as far as attractiveness is concerned.

I'm not talking about physical attraction, of course. Come, no one even knows what he looked like. But in the old SF time travel game of "name any number of people in history you'd like to have dinner with," Jesus wouldn't even figure as a remote possibility(*).

I think you're problem boils down to this: you cannot believe that lots of people do not believe what you believe in.


(*) And I have really odd standards. For instance, while Alexander would be near the top, I'd give priority to his aide, Parminio.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

Because they are interesting.

Sola Scriptura looks like it isn't just what the protestants believe, it is the major reason for the split with the Catholic Church.

I think both churches, if I can call all of the protestants a church for the sake of convenience, have had to play literary gymnastics with the bible. The difference is the Catholic Church claims divine authority of its interpretations via the Magesterium, if I am using all of those terms correctly, and the protestants just try to explain around the problems, I guess.

But both of them are ultimately recognizing the problems and are trying to explain them away, one way or another.

Y'all can go ahead and point out the flaws of other religious texts. I guess we did ask for proof that any religion was false. It won't be as educational, though, without experts from those groups here to defend their beliefs.

To that point, I think the conservative christians in some areas have flawed beliefs, but I don't think it is because of Sola Scriptura.

Quote: Nareed

But in the old SF time travel game of "name any number of people in history you'd like to have dinner with," Jesus wouldn't even figure as a remote possibility(*).

If we had Jesus around, the first thing I would do is get some tissue or blood samples. Jesus being the product of one Earth woman and spiritual being*, would be the first thing I'd want to investigate.

*wink here

Quote: Nareed

Some of these apologies fall far short. While I don't think paying reparations is necessary, making things right should be. So for example when John Paul ][ apologized for the church's treatment of women, he did not follow through by incorporating women in the hierarchy. That is necessary if the church pretends to make policies affecting women.

This would be like Germany acknowledging all the evils of the Holocaust, then refusing to admit any Jews into Germany for any reason.

Well, it is really a matter of opinion both for you personally all the way to society as a whole as to whether or not you/we think any given apology and any followup corrective actions go far enough.

The reason I responded is because it looked to me like you were suggesting that the Catholics had never apologized for anything.

I agree that they are clinging to a tradition about women that no longer fits with the way things are now.