Hey evenbob, I have a question for you.

While his book is either bunk or genius, there's a good discussion on conciousness in Julian Jaynes 'Bicameral Mind'. He defines what he think conciousness is (and takes it beyond a level of just being aware, but to the awareness of being aware, and having a internal monologue about it... kinda).

I suspect conciousness is an emergent phenomena... there's no one thing that creates it, but it happens due to all the parts of the body (especially the brain) doing what it does.

Quote: pew

Package delivery[?]

Package delivery <nods>.

Quote:

is very tangible and easily understood. I don't see an analogy there at all.

It's easily understood.

Can you take package delivery home and mount it on the wall? All processes are intangible.

If you want to FedEx something, A FedEx van comes to your home and collects it. The van drives the package to some location where it joins other packages. From there a FedEx truck drives it to an airport. A FedEx plane then flies it to Memphis, TN. There it joins many other FedEx planes, and all packages are sorted. Your package will be loaded into another FedEx plane (maybe a DC-10!), which will fly it to a different airport. Three you get the truck and van act in reverse, and eventually a FedEx van with a FedEx driver in a FedEx uniform will deliver it to its destination.

You can see, measure and touch any part of this process. The vans, trucks, planes, airports, drivers, uniforms, offices, warehouses, etc. You can, in principle, take any or all the pieces home and mount them on a wall (though moving an airport will prove difficult). If you were to do this, take it all home, you wouldn't have a package delivery. The process is still intangible.

It seems perfectly clear to me.

Consciousness is far more complex than package delivery. That's why we have FedEx, UPS, DHL, Estafeta, TNT (is it still around??), etc, etc., but we can't construct a consciousness.

Let's assume the brain is all there is to consciousness. So we can suppose it's in the relationship, connections, chemical reactions, electrical activity, etc among the neurons and other brain cells. Well enough. We can see, measure and touch each of these things. In the future we may understand how they form a conscious, self-aware mind. When we do, the mind, consciousness and self-awareness will remain as intangible as any other process, such as package delivery.

Or cooking. Cooking is intangible, too.

Quote: Nareed

Quote: pew

Package delivery[?]

Package delivery <nods>.



It's easily understood.

Can you take package delivery home and mount it on the wall? All processes are intangible.

If you want to FedEx something, A FedEx van comes to your home and collects it. The van drives the package to some location where it joins other packages. From there a FedEx truck drives it to an airport. A FedEx plane then flies it to Memphis, TN. There it joins many other FedEx planes, and all packages are sorted. Your package will be loaded into another FedEx plane (maybe a DC-10!), which will fly it to a different airport. Three you get the truck and van act in reverse, and eventually a FedEx van with a FedEx driver in a FedEx uniform will deliver it to its destination.

You can see, measure and touch any part of this process. The vans, trucks, planes, airports, drivers, uniforms, offices, warehouses, etc. You can, in principle, take any or all the pieces home and mount them on a wall (though moving an airport will prove difficult). If you were to do this, take it all home, you wouldn't have a package delivery. The process is still intangible.

It seems perfectly clear to me.

Consciousness is far more complex than package delivery. That's why we have FedEx, UPS, DHL, Estafeta, TNT (is it still around??), etc, etc., but we can't construct a consciousness.

Let's assume the brain is all there is to consciousness. So we can suppose it's in the relationship, connections, chemical reactions, electrical activity, etc among the neurons and other brain cells. Well enough. We can see, measure and touch each of these things. In the future we may understand how they form a conscious, self-aware mind. When we do, the mind, consciousness and self-awareness will remain as intangible as any other process, such as package delivery.

Or cooking. Cooking is intangible, too.

You can definitely put package delivery on the wall in the form of a written description or a series of pictures showing the exact process of package delivery from start to finish. Self awareness and consciousness? I don't think so. We know how to deliver packages. We don't know how conscious works.

Quote: pew

You can definitely put package delivery on the wall in the form of a written description or a series of pictures showing the exact process of package delivery from start to finish. Self awareness and consciousness? I don't think so. We know how to deliver packages. We don't know how conscious works.

We might one day though. And it'll be like package delivery... though I am not sure what the point of Nareed's analogy was except to explain how a process is different from a thing.

Package delivery is a problem that's been broken down into smaller chunks, and while difficult to do en masse, is solved (mostly) by that sub division. You could take away parts of package deliver and replace them with bigger chunks and still solve the problem of getting package from A to B (and the millions of other packages from An to Bn).

Conciousness is probably not a series of small parts that line up in the same way. Though it may be born of smaller parts that are all on their own useful, there's a feedback loop in there. For one thing, we know from research we can affect our own brain by the way we think (research on meditation and mindfulness shows this). One example to think about who is the 'I" is 'Careernium': are you the little thoughts you have, or the overall psyche that creates the little thoughts you have? Or the whole shooting match in the box we call our brains.

Quote: pew

You can definitely put package delivery on the wall in the form of a written description or a series of pictures showing the exact process of package delivery from start to finish. Self awareness and consciousness? I don't think so. We know how to deliver packages. We don't know how conscious works.

It's not a matter of knowing or not knowing. All processes are intangible. They are not concrete objects. You can draw a chart to explain the scientific method. You can use the scientific method to conduct research. You can tweak it, even. You can't put it in a box and ship it to Antarctica.

If we knew exactly how consciousness works, and could even replicate it in some way, it would remain intangible.

Quote: Nareed

It's not a matter of knowing or not knowing. All processes are intangible. They are not concrete objects. You can draw a chart to explain the scientific method. You can use the scientific method to conduct research. You can tweak it, even. You can't put it in a box and ship it to Antarctica.

If we knew exactly how consciousness works, and could even replicate it in some way, it would remain intangible.

Ok, consciousness is intangible no problem here. I'm asking, does it actually exist? The strict monistic/materialist view reduces it to brain activity negating the self/soul or whatever and does away with any free will we may think we have. Most people, even many materialists (I'm sure there are plenty on this board) find this view repugnant. Along comes the emergent view (that I think you are kind of describing in your analogy) that gets away from random electrical charges bouncing around between synapses as the total explanation for the self. The problem here is that breaking consciousness into small steps and bits over a long time as part of the evolutionary process doesn't allow for free will or the existence of self either. It just changes the process.

Quote: pew

Ok, consciousness is intangible no problem here. I'm asking, does it actually exist?

I think there's a lovely Latin phrase that means "The question answers itself."

Your question answers itself.

Quote:

The strict monistic/materialist view reduces it to brain activity negating the self/soul or whatever and does away with any free will we may think we have.

Free will is evident even in lower animals without self-awareness. In people it's self-evident.

Quote:

Along comes the emergent view (that I think you are kind of describing in your analogy) that gets away from random electrical charges bouncing around between synapses as the total explanation for the self. The problem here is that breaking consciousness into small steps and bits over a long time as part of the evolutionary process doesn't allow for free will or the existence of self either. It just changes the process.

Why not?

Many processes are self-directed in ways that the mere chemical reactions and mechanical forces alone cannot account for. Like DNA replication.

DNA is not conscious, naturally, but it directs its own replication. You are conscious and self-aware. You can control your own mind, soul, self or whatever you want to call it.

What is the "you" that controls the mind? Concrete answer please. Your DNA replication example is a great analogy to the brain being the mind, and self and free will being illusory.

I can ship conciousness to the Antarctic. There's a bunch of people living there right now. They got shipped there, and they will be shipped back. They are concious (we presume).

Quote: pew

What is the "you" that controls the mind? Concrete answer please. Your DNA replication example is a great analogy to the brain being the mind, and self and free will being illusory.

The mind is the you that controls the mind.