Hey FrGamble!

October 5th, 2015 at 1:16:43 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18631
Of course, a tree doesn't always mean a bird.

You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
October 5th, 2015 at 1:25:35 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: rxwine
But did anyone ever see a god make a Universe? Not even once. We certainly don't have evidence of things coming into existence from supernatural beings to compare with. Not even one.


I'm impressed with this reasoning, good job.
Faith and reason have nothing in common.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 5th, 2015 at 5:21:25 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: FrGamble
This is not an explanation at all, it solves nothing, and helps with nothing.

When I googled as you suggested the really poor book by Lawerance Krauss is the only thing that came up. Here is a good review of that book that is worth a read:

A Review of A Universe From Nothing


Try this one - a mathematical proof that the universe came from nothing

http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/proof-that-the-universe-could-have-come-from-nothing.

So, while you have shown reasoning that god exists, here is an explaination of math that doesn't require a creator.

There are other links and articles about this mathematical explaination, one of them at Scientific American.

As for it solving nothing - that is clearly a matter of opinion and or perspective. I can certainly see how it solves nothing for you.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
October 5th, 2015 at 5:31:09 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
As for that book and the review of that book - philosophy can not prove anything about the nature of the universe.

Scientists have done thought experiments, sure. I think they are used to help communicate ideas to eachother, and to demonstrate what they think could reasonably be the truth. They don't prove anything by themselves, though.

The math and that other article are another attempt to demonstrate an origin of the universe that doesn't require supernatural intervention.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
October 5th, 2015 at 6:31:57 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: rxwine
But did anyone ever see a god make a Universe?


Good one.

Quote:
Not even once. We certainly don't have evidence of things coming into existence from supernatural beings to compare with. Not even one.

At best you can say, maybe. But "maybe" does not remove all doubt.


Suppose you'd said there was no evidence for phlogiston, or luminiferous ether, or epicycles, would you say it was reasonable to maintain they maybe do exist?

This is a question, not a challenge. I just can't understand why a hypothesis for which there is no evidence ought to be discarded, but the idea of a deity without any evidence should be accepted as a possibility.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
October 5th, 2015 at 11:46:15 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Dalex64
As for that book and the review of that book - philosophy can not prove anything about the nature of the universe.


Math and science can build an airplane or
a submarine. Philosophy can build jack..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 5th, 2015 at 3:40:35 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: rxwine
I think you're reasoning would be correct if we came upon a bird's nest and found an egg. We have seen birds before, and we have seen birds sitting on eggs.

So, we don't necessarily need to see the bird to presume the egg likely came from a bird.

But did anyone ever see a god make a Universe? Not even once. We certainly don't have evidence of things coming into existence from supernatural beings to compare with. Not even one.

At best you can say, maybe. But "maybe" does not remove all doubt. So, yes, you can reasonably doubt a god existence.

So, I guess I've gone farther into god doesn't exist, into a possibility. But that doesn't mean it is only reasonable to say God exists. Maybe doesn't bring you that far.


I'm glad to hear you understand the main idea of the argument and your "maybe". Really in our current state of affairs getting some of the people in our world to recognize a reasonable reason for the existence of God is more than enough for now. Far too many think that an atheists claims are somehow intelligent or scientifically based and nothing could be further from the truth. While the theist is grounded is solid principles, such as 'if something has come into being it must have a cause'; 'something cannot come from nothing'; 'for anything to exist there must be something that has existence in itself'; etc., etc. An atheist is left grasping at straws saying nonsense things like 'material things are eternal', 'spontaneous creation out of nothing', and even things that don't answer the question at all such as wormholes and alternate universes.

But back to your bird analogy. You admit that we don't need to see the bird to presume the egg came from a bird. I would say that we don't even necessarily need to have ever seen a bird. Based on the thing we do know, the evidence of existence, we can at least gain some knowledge or what gave it birth. We know that material things always come from something else before it and philosophy and logic teach us that this cannot go back forever so we know that if existence is material it must have eventually come from something that is not material and powerful enough to create from nothing everything that exists. This is similar to what you might do if you discovered a strange egg. You would not be able for sure to determine the type of animal that laid it, unless it revealed itself to you, but you could in examining the egg determine some things about what created it.

This by the way is what I kind of chuckle at about Evenbob's ex-priest friend. He says that he finds no credible evidence for the existence of God. For such a precise guy I'm surprised he doesn't clarify that he really means the existence of the Christian concept of God. The evidence for God is the fact of existence everywhere you look! So is the evidence for Christ, but that is another thread.

Finally, so Wizard did we win the bet?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 5th, 2015 at 3:44:31 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Math and science can build an airplane or
a submarine. Philosophy can build jack..


Bob, you have said a lot of crazy and infuriating things - this made my top five for sure. Without philosophy there would be no desire or thirst to build an airplane or a submarine and there wouldn't be anyone adventurous and daring enough to use them without philosophy. You must come to the realization that the hard sciences need the higher sciences so that in working together they can do great things together.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 5th, 2015 at 3:50:43 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Something from nothing is a real theory that some real scientists really believe. It takes no more faith than it does to believe in god.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/stephen-hawking-something-out-of-nothing-is-possible-53589/
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
October 5th, 2015 at 4:15:16 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
You must come to the realization that the hard sciences need the higher sciences so that in working together they can do great things together.


You must come to the realization that organized
religion is not a wonderful accomplishment. It's
done and continues to do far more harm than
good. The religions based on Yahweh, anyway.
Christianity, Mormonism, Islam, Judaism.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.