Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Dalex64

What proof or evidence do you put forth to disprove the notion that what we perceived of as god was anything other than an extraterrestrial? What could be a simpler explanation that operates within the rules of the universe as we know them, and requires no supernatural explanation, that we were engineered by aliens and perceived them as gods?

It doesn't fit with the logic that there is a first cause to the universe. Okay so you add aliens into the mix, well they are contingent beings as well and need a creator. You have just added another needless level of complication without proof that adds nothing to the discussion.

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Well, one simpler explanation is that we developed naturally on our own of course. But I'm putting forth an explanation that fits and is supported by all of the same evidence that is used to attempt to demonstrate that the supernatural is real.

The universe cannot create itself any more than the moon can or you can. You are not putting forth an explanation just a complication and I'm not sure why. The inescapable fact is that for there to be anything at all that exists, including aliens or other gods with a lower case g, then there must be a supreme all powerful being that is truly eternal, non-contingent on anything else for its existence and spiritual. Your fighting against logic not me here. There is a supernatural reality that is the source of all creation.

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It also still hasn't been demonstrated how the god of moses and the god that started the universe are one and the same. As far as I can tell, the only evidence is someone said "because someone said he said so"

This is the question that gives hope to atheists. Not does God exist but rather that it doesn't matter and that this God is not the God of Abraham and Moses and not the incarnate Jesus of Nazareth. The evidence is more than "because someone said he is so." It goes back to the question of revelation and what does the Scripture say about who we are and how does it help us live our lives and understand ourselves. It also includes miracles and the witness and experience of countless individuals.

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How can you possibly disprove the idea that some other entity didn't create the universe AND god? Because that isn't what someone wrote? It fits infinite regression, it just contradicts your notion that god was first and only.

N.B. I am not using the Scriptures as evidence of God's existence. We only need logic and reality to show that. If some other entity created the universe and god then that entity would be the true God.

Quote: Dalex64

That is perhaps the greatest logical fallacy of all time - that you can select any religion above any other as the truth. .

That's because religion isn't about science,
it's about emotion. Look at FrG, he wants
to use his emotional experience with his
religion as evidence it's real. It's silly
beyond reason, but religion gets away
with it.

If you say you talk to Abe Lincoln and
he's your secret friend, they put you in
the loony bin. If you say you talk the
invisible guy in the sky and Jesus is your
secret friend, the give you tax free status for
your church. The reason they don't lock
you up is you got others to say the same
thing. They believe you and you believe
them, when actually nothing is going on
at all.

Quote: Dalex64

I am by far not the first one to come up with this idea:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_astronaut_hypothesis

They call it pseudoscience. That is the same word they use to describe creationism.

Because that is what it is.

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Too bad religion can't stand up to the same tests that science can bring against ideas like this. It's kinda unfair, don't you think, that people can propose scientific theories at the risk of having them scientifically disproven, but no such test exists for ANY religion?

The test for a religion is much more stringent and difficult. It has to be philosophically, scientifically, reasonably, historically, and logically sound. For a religion to be true it has to do more than be observable it has to move not just our senses like science, but it has to move our minds, and most importantly our heart. Religion is playing on a different playing field than science. Science can't answer the questions of why we are here? What is our purpose? Why do I struggle to do what I know is right? Is there life after death? Etc. These are the questions that religion has to face and it is kinda of unfair that this real serious questions cannot be proven with an equation or seen through a telescope or a microscope. Maybe I should have been a scientist it is so much easier.

Quote: FrGamble

We only need logic and reality to show that. .

You keep saying that like it's true. If
it were, you would have presented
some logic that proves your point
and so far you have presented none.

Salesmen use this ploy when selling
worthless crap to unsuspecting people.
They pretend they already explained
something when they actually explained
nothing.

The book of Enoch features some corporeal non-humans

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

It also shares several characters, names, and places with some of the stories in the bible. It didn't make the cut when the Jews assembles their holy book, though.

It can be used to support the ancient astronaut hypothesis.

Quote: Evenbob

If you say you talk the
invisible guy in the sky and Jesus is your
secret friend, the give you tax free status for
your church. The reason they don't lock
you up is you got others to say the same
thing. They believe you and you believe
them, when actually nothing is going on
at all.

I think you are not really thinking about all the possibilities here and you are not really seriously asking yourself the question why this is? Maybe you are smarter than everyone else but I sure wish you would stop hiding it.

Quote: FrGamble

Because that is what it is.



The test for a religion is much more stringent and difficult. It has to be philosophically, scientifically, reasonably, historically, and logically sound. For a religion to be true it has to do more than be observable it has to move not just our senses like science, but it has to move our minds, and most importantly our heart. Religion is playing on a different playing field than science. Science can't answer the questions of why we are here? What is our purpose? Why do I struggle to do what I know is right? Is there life after death? Etc. These are the questions that religion has to face and it is kinda of unfair that this real serious questions cannot be proven with an equation or seen through a telescope or a microscope. Maybe I should have been a scientist it is so much easier.

You keep saying that, but what makes you right and everyone else wrong? The only answer is because that is what you believe to be true.

Quote: FrGamble

I think you are not really thinking about all the possibilities here.

I don't care about all the possibilities.
Why complicate things for no reason.
I have no agenda, unlike you. It benefits
religious people to complicate things
as much as possible, it makes the rabble
in the pews think you know what you're
doing.

Quote: Evenbob

You keep saying that like it's true. If
it were, you would have presented
some logic that proves your point
and so far you have presented none.

You have shown yourself immune to logic with your infinite and eternal material universe but here we go.

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

The universe began to exist. {material things are not necessary and are contingent} {plus you can just look at modern science that points us to this conclusion}

Therefore the universe has a cause.

Furthermore, if the universe has a cause it must be eternal (outside of time and space), spiritual (an non material non-contingent entity), and all-powerful (to create out of nothing all matter and energy that exists).

Quote: FrGamble

It doesn't fit with the logic that there is a first cause to the universe. Okay so you add aliens into the mix, well they are contingent beings as well and need a creator. You have just added another needless level of complication without proof that adds nothing to the discussion.



The universe cannot create itself any more than the moon can or you can. You are not putting forth an explanation just a complication and I'm not sure why. The inescapable fact is that for there to be anything at all that exists, including aliens or other gods with a lower case g, then there must be a supreme all powerful being that is truly eternal, non-contingent on anything else for its existence and spiritual. Your fighting against logic not me here. There is a supernatural reality that is the source of all creation.



This is the question that gives hope to atheists. Not does God exist but rather that it doesn't matter and that this God is not the God of Abraham and Moses and not the incarnate Jesus of Nazareth. The evidence is more than "because someone said he is so." It goes back to the question of revelation and what does the Scripture say about who we are and how does it help us live our lives and understand ourselves. It also includes miracles and the witness and experience of countless individuals.



N.B. I am not using the Scriptures as evidence of God's existence. We only need logic and reality to show that. If some other entity created the universe and god then that entity would be the true God.

My purpose in putting forth these complications is that they are plausible, would show your religion to be incorrect, and can't be dismissed just because your version is the "simplest" explanation (in your opinion). You need to review Occam's Razor again. First of all, it is a conjecture, not the rule of the universe. Secondly, it does not say that the simplest explanation must be the correct explanation.