Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Evenbob

"...when people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them the question itself makes no sense. Time didn’t exist before the Big Bang, so there is no time for God to make the universe in." Stephen Hawking

That is a good quote to look at. This fits perfectly into one of the three categories of atheists I mentioned earlier. It also in some ways respects the limits of scientific knowledge. Stephen Hawking is saying that before the Big Bang there was no time, no way to measure anything and since we live in time it is beyond our observation. This is correct. We will never have an instrument or telescope that can see beyond the beginning of time. Only philosophy and theology can get us there, aka metaphysics. We can also learn from the sciences, gather evidence, and use logic to arrive at certain conclusions. Notice that Stephen Hawking only says that there is no time for God to make the universe in. However, if God was outside of time then God could and of course did create the universe. Notice as well that he is assuming a beginning of the universe.

Quote: FrGamble

However, if God was outside of time then God could and of course did create the universe..

And if Santa really lived at the
North Pole and made toys and
had flying reindeer, he could
deliver presents on Xmas
Eve. Makes as much sense as
what you said. Anything is
possible in your imagination.

And yes, when electric started
being used in homes many
we're terrified of it because it
was obviously 'supernatural'
to them. No amount of explaining
would change their minds. Rather
like you and the crackpot
ideas of your Church. The wafer
and wine are the REAL body and
blood of Jesus? Sure they are...

It seems like no amount of explaination will help you. You keep denying the possibility of the supernatural as I step away carefully.

Quote: FrGamble

It seems like no amount of explaination will help you. You keep denying the possibility of the supernatural

The supernatural has not been
proven to exist, let alone have
an influence over anything.
That you cling to it so desperately
speaks volumes about your
Church.

Give just one example of something
supernatural that can be tested
and confirmed. You can't so it, so
please withhold your pity for me
that I'm more than skeptical.

How do you propose we test for the supernatural? Obviously we can't measure it in an experiment or analyze it in a test tube? We could look at miracles I suppose. Our Lady of Guadalupe, incorrupt saints dead hundreds of years, incorrupt hosts, the Shroud of Turin, Marian apparitions, healings. Would examining these convince you of the supernatural? Maybe you can examine closer your theory of reincarnation, that is for sure supernatural. The Natural laws are by definition above nature. Or we could look at the personal experiences of people in encountering or experiencing the supernatural. How should we proceed?

Quote: petroglyph

"Now quantum physicist Pasi Lähteenmäki at Aalto University in Finland and his colleagues reveal that by varying the speed at which light can travel, they can make light appear from nothing."

Good article. More evidence that even in a vacuum the area within, is not empty. Supports my theory that there is no "nothing".

"We can show that it is plausible"

A Universe from Nothing

Quote: FrGamble

How do you propose we test for the supernatural?

You can't, it doesn't exist. Obviously.

Quote: Evenbob

You can't, it doesn't exist. Obviously.

Now I know your frustration when I say it is obvious that there must be a supernatural cause to the universe. Except the difference is I am open to other options and ideas, you don't seem to be.

Quote: FrGamble

How do you propose we test for the supernatural? Obviously we can't measure it in an experiment or analyze it in a test tube? We could look at miracles I suppose. Our Lady of Guadalupe, incorrupt saints dead hundreds of years, incorrupt hosts, the Shroud of Turin, Marian apparitions, healings. Would examining these convince you of the supernatural?

Quote:

Maybe you can examine closer your theory of reincarnation, that is for sure supernatural. The Natural laws are by definition above nature. Or we could look at the personal experiences of people in encountering or experiencing the supernatural. How should we proceed?

You were doing better until you rolled that first part out. I wouldn't tell people about that if I was trying to convince someone about the superman. Just stick with what you have in your head, no one can argue with that.

"I like your Christ. I don't like your
Christians, they're nothing like
your Christ." Mahatma Ghandi

Amen to that..