I wonder

I ask St. Jude, the patron saint of hopeless causes to intercede fro Evenbob all the time ;)

If you listened to my prayers it would be something like, "Dear St. Jude please open the mind of Bob and help him to overcome the prejudice and poor teaching of his youth in regards to religion and especially the Catholic Church. Soften his heart and help him and all who love him to be blessed and happy. Amen." You'll notice the prayer is to St. Jude if taken literally, but of course Jude has no power to do any other these things, only God does. Therefore the prayer is really addressed to God through the intercession of Jude. Every Christian and most every religious tradition that prays understands this. If I ask a fellow Christian to pray for me I would say, "Mary Sue could you pray for me and my family, we are going through some tough stuff right now." I am not confusing Mary Sue with God. I am simply asking for her intercessory prayer to God - the source of all graces.

I recognize this might be hard to discern from the outside looking in, but believe me Christians know when they are praying for each other or when asking for the saint's intercessions (which are the same thing) that everyone is praying to God, who alone is to be worshiped.

Quote: FrGamble

I recognize this might be hard to discern from the outside looking in, .

It's also hard for those actually doing it. Do
you really believe the Mary and saint
prayers think they are not worshiping Mary
and the saints? Listen to their words, of
course they think that. That's why they do
it! That's why the Church made a point of
raising Mary to an almost almost godlike
position. She is the goddess part Church,
and they pray to her.

Quote: FrGamble

You'll notice the prayer is to St. Jude if taken literally, but of course Jude has no power to do any other these things, only God does. Therefore the prayer is really addressed to God through the intercession of Jude.

If I told you that prayers and offerings to, oh, Fortuna or Venus or Minerva or Mars were meant to get Jupiter to intervene, would you have considered the Romans monotheists?

I wouldn't.

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If I ask a fellow Christian to pray for me I would say, "Mary Sue could you pray for me and my family, we are going through some tough stuff right now." I am not confusing Mary Sue with God. I am simply asking for her intercessory prayer to God - the source of all graces.

Then why not ask St. Jude to pray to God on your behalf for a favor?

The next logical question is: why pray at all? If God is omniscient, doesn't he already know what you need and whether or not you deserve it? And shouldn't he also know you want it? The pagan gods were not all-knowing, nor all-powerful. In legends Zeus gets fooled by mortals. In Egypt, animal mummies offered to the gods were often fakes (though very likely the pilgrims and priests didn't know, as they could not unwrap them and see). The ancients needed to pray, or write messages, because otherwise their deities wouldn't know what was needed.

Quote: Nareed

The next logical question is: why pray at all? If God is omniscient, doesn't he already know what you need and whether or not you deserve it?

I've always wondered about this too.
If god knows your every thought,
he also knows your every need, why
should you have to ask for it. Seems
like a grand waste of time. God already
knows what he's going to do, you can't
change it, so why bother. Just accept
it will go gods way and move on.

If there was a god, that is. The more we
talk about it, the more preposterous it
gets.

I might need to review what a saint is. A saint is a person who has lived an exemplary life and now rejoices in the joys of Heaven. They are still connected to us and want to do anything and everything they can so that we can join them in our true home with God. From their vantage point of Heaven no longer limited by space or time and through their closeness to God (literally and figuratively) they can be powerful helps on the road to salvation. So they are normal men and women just like us who have made it and want to help us make it too.

If you ask any Catholic if they think Mary is divine or a goddess they would immediately say of course not. If you asked if a saint was a demi-god or another god they would think you were crazy.

You skipped a logical question before you asked your big one about why pray at all? The question you missed was why not just go to God directly? That is a good question too; all your questions are good.

First of all we can and do go directly to God and there is nothing at all wrong with that. In fact the Mass is one big beautiful prayer directly to God. However, praying for others is something we do as Christians. It fosters community and relationships. It helps us realize we are not alone and it allows us the powerful intercession of the righteous, when we ourselves might not be so.

As to the question regarding why pray at all we have to broaden our definition. We have been talking only of intercessory prayer a small part of prayer. Prayer is also Repentance, Adoration, and Thanksgiving. This fuller picture of prayer reminds us that we are not praying to change God's will to ours, but our will to His. It is about entering into a relationship with the Almighty and giving Him Thanks and Praise - in the good times and the bad.

Quote: FrGamble

If you ask any Catholic if they think Mary is divine or a goddess they would immediately say of course not. If you asked if a saint was a demi-god or another god they would think you were crazy.

If you showed an educated Roman of the Second Century CE a man making offerings and praying to a statue or other representation of a person, and then asked him what that man was doing, he'd be convinced to his very core he is seeing someone worshipping a god. He'd be puzzled at the quality of the offerings (no gold or even silver??) as measured against the depth of feeling in the prayer. from that he'd conclude either this god is not very powerful, or the supplicant is very poor; and either way he's not likely to get what he wants.

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The question you missed was why not just go to God directly?

It never crossed my mind.

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That is a good question too; all your questions are good.

Thank you.

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However, praying for others is something we do as Christians. It fosters community and relationships. It helps us realize we are not alone and it allows us the powerful intercession of the righteous, when we ourselves might not be so.

I think you're talking about two different subject, but it's hard to tell.

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As to the question regarding why pray at all we have to broaden our definition. We have been talking only of intercessory prayer a small part of prayer.

That's a very, very nice way to sidestep the question.

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This fuller picture of prayer reminds us that we are not praying to change God's will to ours, but our will to His.

I've heard something similar from Orthodox Jews. It hasn't become any less distasteful with time.

I found something amazing: The History of Egypt Podcast by Dominic Perry.

Mr. Perry is one more of those inspired by Mike Duncan's monumental The History of Rome podcast. But unlike most of Mike Duncan's disciples, Perry is an actual academic historian, and his specialty is Egyptology. I'm very excited about it. This should very nicely fill in the outline from Prof. Brier's course on Egypt.

I'm tempted even to learn ancient Egyptian, including hieroglyphs and demotic script. It would be neat to go to a museum and be able to read the artifacts :) But it would also be too much work. perhaps I'll settle and learn the hieroglyphic and demotic alphabets. Long ago, I learned the Cyrillic alphabet and used it in school to write "study notes."