I wonder

Quote: aceofspades

If you concede that religion comes about from evolution - do you also concede that the ultimate evolution of religion is atheism?

If we compare it to biological evolution, then there's no predetermined end or pinnacle. It will simply go on adapting forever, stopping only if it goes extinct. This does mean it can remain unchanged for long periods of time, if it faces no pressure to adapt. Like some sharks have remained the same for literally ages.

If we look at the trends, though, we start with very pious people, mostly, worshiping many gods. Attempts at monotheism usually fail, or draw only limited numbers of followers (Christianity is no exception to this(*), and I'm not certain about Islam). However, over time the number of gods worshiped has gone down, after first exploding wildly. Ancient Egypt had, as Londo Mollari put it in Babylon 5, "gods by the bushel." And so did Rome, Greece, Carthage, etc.

At the same time, and in certain areas of the world, people have grown less pious. I wonder, for instance, how many American Christians have a shrine at home or at work.

So if both trends continue, we shall have no gods and no piety. If this happens, religion will have reached the only evolutionary stopping point: extinction.

I don't think this will happen. Culture, of which religion is part, changes more easily than biology.


(*) Obviously Christianity has a large number of followers. What I mean is it isn't monotheistic in a strict sense of the term. While it claims to have one god, this deity is split into three "persons," and there's worship of one of this person's mother, and of saints. There are even patron saints of towns and of professions, which is little different from Pagan times when there were patron gods of towns and professions.

I'm sure a certain, a very certain, forum member will strongly disagree.

So to even the score, I'll mention some Jews worship Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and all Orthodox and Conservative Jews, as far as I know, practice idolatry with some of the paraphernalia of their faith. When you kiss and object as part of a ritual, you're worshiping it. This is a legacy of the time when Judaism was an eccentric pagan religion, not too different from a myriad others.

Quote: Nareed

I'm sure a certain, a very certain, forum member will strongly disagree.

You make very good points, as usual. Mary
and Jesus are indeed worshiped by the
Church, no matter what they say about it
to the contrary. The Saints are indeed
almost gods, in that you can pray to them
and ask things of them. I hear my sister in
law, a Catholic, is praying to Saints all the
time. There are still many gods, nothing
has changed.

The padre will vehemently disagree because
that's his job. But you can't hide the truth
when it is in plain sight.

Quote: aceofspades

If you concede that religion comes about from evolution - do you also concede that the ultimate evolution of religion is atheism?

Ha, I had to laugh at this suggestion. That would be like saying is the ultimate end of evolution is oblivion. Evolution, especially one guided by an unseen intelligence, is about changes occuring that best help us survive and thrive. Atheism would be the opposite of this.

Quote: Evenbob

The padre will vehemently disagree because
that's his job. But you can't hide the truth
when it is in plain sight.

No I will vehemently disagree because you and Nareed are wrong, and if your sister-in-law is worshiping saints then she is wrong too. You might argue that the impression you receive from the outside looking in is that Mary is worshiped or that the saints are treated as demi-gods, but you cannot continue to claim this is true when the official teaching of the Church is so clear, not to mention the understanding of the faithful. We have covered this before Evenbob and I'm flabbergasted you remain so entrenched in your ignorance.

Quote: FrGamble

H Evolution, especially one guided by an unseen intelligence,

It's guided by chance and randomness, not
by unseen intelligence.

Quote: FrGamble

We have covered this before Evenbob and I'm flabbergasted you remain so entrenched in your ignorance.

Yup, you've given the Churches spin on it,
it's talking points, and I'm not buying them.
No matter what you say, the people are
worshiping Mary and the Saints. I know
it and you know it. They're not supposed
to, the Church is against it (on paper anyway),
but those pesky believers, it makes them feel
so darn good you kinda let them get away
with it.

Quote: FrGamble

No I will vehemently disagree because you and Nareed are wrong,

I beg your pardon. I am always right, except the times when I'm not. ;)

Seriously, what constitutes Christianity? The rules, dogma, and writings by the church hierarchy, or the way people practice their religion?

I mentioned home and work shrines. In Mexico shrines to the Virgin Mary are very common, especially at what we might term blue-collar work settings. some homes have them, too. People place votive candles and small offerings like flowers or incense there. I've visited churches where they have similar shrines to various saints, again with candles and offerings, and people pray to them.

If that's not worship, what is it?

We'll tackle idolatry and images at some other time.

That is veneration and asking for intercession not worship, which belongs only to God.

Quote: FrGamble

That is veneration and asking for intercession not worship, which belongs only to God.

It sure looks and feels like worship when
they're doing it. When they talk out loud to
Mary, if what their saying isn't worship
then we need to change the definition of
the word. Do you really think that calling
it something different changes what they
think it is?

Quote: FrGamble

That is veneration

It looks very much alike.

Quote:

.. and asking for intercession not worship, which belongs only to God.

I've overheard prayers to saints and Mary a few times. I've read a few more. None said anything remotely like "please tell God I need/want X." perhaps I'm experiencing skewed probabilities and I only get those who don't know what they're doing. But that seems very unlikely.