Easter Is Coming in 8 Weeks

Quote: Dalex64

I'll add a wrinkle to that - not only would everything said about Jesus have to be true, but everything Jesus said would have to be true.

Oh, the reason this is such a good point is simply this:

Why would the omnipotent, omniscient god and creator of humanity provide humanity with the wrong guidance?

Humans figuring out proper ethics, using different standards of value, different methods, making different observations, studying different previous attempts, are expected to stumble, fail, fall and otherwise get things wrong as well as right, through a long time trying. Whereas God should know the right answers even before he engaged in creation.

Quote: Evenbob

In a way, yes. Secular kids are taught that
you do the right thing because you want
to, because it's morally correct to treat
others as you want to be treated. Christians
tell their kids they have to do the right
thing, it's a sin not to and you'll be punished
by god if you misbehave. This
leaves a ton of room for rebellion, when
the secular way leaves none. You make the
right choice because you want to, not because
you were told to.

This is why morality always needs to develop. When you've got a little one you can explain till you are blue in the face that you shouldn't pull your sisters hair or stick your fingers in electrical sockets, but punishment is often needed to drive this point home to correct and teach them. Then as the kids mature if you are still using punishment and not love and reason as your motivation you are in trouble. Young people need to know why something is wrong or why it is right before they will truly follow it and incorporate those actions into their morality.

This is where secular parents could run into loads of trouble. What if their kids say, "Why is stealing wrong mommy?" "Well, Bobby it is wrong because you wouldn't want people to steal for you would you? It makes the world a better place if we all respect each other's property." "But mommy what if I can get away with it or if stealing something will really help me and the other person is too weak to defend themselves or say anything about it?" "It is still wrong Bobby." "But why mommy?" "Because I said so." "Who are you to determine what is right for me to do?" "Oh man, I knew I should have believed in God!"

Quote: FrGamble

"But why mommy?" "Because I said so." "Who are you to determine what is right for me to do?" "Oh man, I knew I should have believed in God!"

You're voicing the very thing that Christian
kids go through, not secular. Rebelling
against being told what to do, instead of
reasoning it out for themselves. Christians
are convinced that people will always choose
to do bad if left to their own devices. That
unless the constant threat of eternal punishment
is there, it's hopeless.

Again, the majority of people in prison are
Christian in the US, the secular prisoners
barely show up in the graph. With 25% to
30% of people under 30 now saying they
have no religion, by your standards the prisons
should be swollen with these godless creatures.
And the opposite is true.

I can't find the right thing to quote, so FrGamble, if you found out that the ressurection never happened, would you still follow the teachings of Christ and of the church, which have developed over these past 2,000 years or so?

Quote: FrGamble

This is where secular parents could run into loads of trouble. What if their kids say, "Why is stealing wrong mommy?" "Well, Bobby it is wrong because you wouldn't want people to steal for you would you? It makes the world a better place if we all respect each other's property." "But mommy what if I can get away with it or if stealing something will really help me and the other person is too weak to defend themselves or say anything about it?" "It is still wrong Bobby." "But why mommy?" "Because I said so." "Who are you to determine what is right for me to do?" "Oh man, I knew I should have believed in God!"

This gives me the impression if God didn't forbid stealing, you'd be robbing everyone you could.

People are better than this.

Stealing is wrong because it is self-destructive on many levels. Aside from the consequences of getting caught (and in many parts of the world it's perfectly legal to kill a thief caught in the act), there is the fact that you have lowered yourself to a position where you need to harm someone else for your own benefit. This is a blow your self-esteem cannot easily absorb. It's not a mistake which can be corrected, or even negligence which can be atoned for, but the deliberate, conscious choice to take by force that which doesn't belong to you, to do violence to another person's right to their property.

As noted your self-esteem will suffer, but so will your pride. How can you be proud of being abusive and a criminal? Your own image of yourself will be diminished and you will suffer the consequences of all this, even if you're not caught.

All this, too, before I even say a word of the reciprocity argument. You know, that if you think it's right for you to steal from others, then you can't complain when others steal from you.

That's a lot more rational, comprehensible and logical than "Because God says so!" You'd be better off finding rational basis for morality.

Quote: Evenbob

You're voicing the very thing that Christian
kids go through, not secular. Rebelling
against being told what to do,

Ha, every kid does this whether you are Christian, atheist, or from Mars.

Quote:

Christians
are convinced that people will always choose
to do bad if left to their own devices. That
unless the constant threat of eternal punishment
is there, it's hopeless.

There you go again laying the foundations for an argument that would say the law is useless and we should do away with secular laws and punishments. It is only the Christians who will do bad if we got rid of the laws so let's keep them in place for them. Do you see that it is not only Christians, but anyone with experience and/or common sense who knows that people can do things that are wrong? Maybe its because you deny original sin that leaves you in such ignorance or denial about this fact.

Quote: Nareed

People are better than this.

Yes they are, but they need help. We are at the same time broken yet brimming with potential. We are weak and yet have inside of us a glorious strength. Ignorance of this human dilemma is disastrous. This is why I think everyone is a child of God, yet I still lock my car at night.

Quote:

Stealing is wrong because it is self-destructive on many levels.

Oh, we have no problem in all of us recognizing stealing is self-destructive on many levels. Reason indeed can show us that very clearly. The problem is when you claim it is wrong, which I noticed you did not. What if you pride yourself on being the better than everyone else and have no qualms about using force to get what you want. You don't mind being abusive or a criminal. Surely you would recognize it might be a decision that could lead to disastrous consequences for you down the road and a shorter life span, but hey you only live once. Lots of evil people get away with it, why can't I?

Quote:

As noted your self-esteem will suffer, but so will your pride. How can you be proud of being abusive and a criminal? Your own image of yourself will be diminished and you will suffer the consequences of all this, even if you're not caught.

You are projecting your reasons for having self-esteem onto others. I don't know how someone can be proud of being abusive or a criminal, but I've unfortunately met my fair share of such people. You will indeed suffer the consequences even if you are not caught in my worldview. In yours I'm not quite sure how you can say that.

Quote:

That's a lot more rational, comprehensible and logical than "Because God says so!" You'd be better off finding rational basis for morality.

What is your rational basis for dong good and not stealing when it would be selfish to do so?

Quote: FrGamble

The problem is when you claim it is wrong, which I noticed you did not. What if you pride yourself on being the better than everyone else and have no qualms about using force to get what you want.

Then you have bigger problems than stealing. You're defining yourself by what others think of you, not what you can achieve for yourself. You let your worth be determined by factors outside your control, which you must work tirelessly to beat into line. You either become bitter and resentful and sullen, or a bitter and resentful thug. Both ways you lose yourself and your soul (as the Egyptians would say, your Ba deserts you).

Quote:

I don't know how someone can be proud of being abusive or a criminal, but I've unfortunately met my fair share of such people.

I have met people who brag about misdeeds, and none have been proud of it. They rationalize, they justify, they lie to themselves. Asimov liked to point out no one thinks of themselves as a villain. See what I wrote above. They live in fear and anger, and get the angrier the more they are afraid. It's a miserable existence.

Quote:

What is your rational basis for dong good and not stealing when it would be selfish to do so?

Is any of what I wrote above or in the previous post selfish in any way? Does any of what I wrote above lead to a better life?

Quote: Nareed

Then you have bigger problems than stealing. You're defining yourself by what others think of you, not what you can achieve for yourself. You let your worth be determined by factors outside your control, which you must work tirelessly to beat into line. You either become bitter and resentful and sullen, or a bitter and resentful thug. Both ways you lose yourself and your soul (as the Egyptians would say, your Ba deserts you).

I agree. As Christ would say, What would it profit one to gain the whole world and lose their soul?

Quote:

I have met people who brag about misdeeds, and none have been proud of it. They rationalize, they justify, they lie to themselves. Asimov liked to point out no one thinks of themselves as a villain. See what I wrote above. They live in fear and anger, and get the angrier the more they are afraid. It's a miserable existence.

These are the same people. I think in our heart of hearts we can never be proud of being a villain. We are broken enough to rationalize or justify our actions but being made in the image and likeness of God we cannot be evil through and through.

Quote:

Is any of what I wrote above or in the previous post selfish in any way?

Not really, that is why I wanted to remind you that you are the self-proclaimed most selfish person I have ever met.

Quote: FrGamble

Not really, that is why I wanted to remind you that you are the self-proclaimed most selfish person I have ever met.

How can you not get it? I gave a lot of very selfish reasons why it's not selfish to steal.