Easter Is Coming in 8 Weeks

Quote: Nareed

I like to think current trends will continue, and we'll become more tolerant, more peaceful, less violent, more interested in leisure, more interested in learning, more interested in technology.

In what world do you live?

Quote: FrGamble

In what world do you live?

In one where there hasn't been a major war involving great powers going all out on each other for the past 70 years. One where violent crime is trending down in many countries, and where violence is decried and denigrated. One where all sorts of oppressed minorities find ever more oppression lifted off them, and where arbitrary oppression is seen as a moral wrong.

What world do you live in?

One in which I am grateful for all you mention but under no illusion that such progress is universal. One that still needs lots of work and where the rise of terror, fear, and depression creeps into the daily lives of people all over the globe in unprecedented ways with disastrous results for the emotional, relational, and spiritual well being of human beings.

Quote: FrGamble

One in which I am grateful for all you mention but under no illusion that such progress is universal.

Even Descartes knew he could improve himself though he might not improve the whole world. Progress in some parts is better than no progress at all.

Quote:

One that still needs lots of work and where the rise of terror, fear, and depression creeps into the daily lives of people all over the globe in unprecedented ways with disastrous results for the emotional, relational, and spiritual well being of human beings.

That has been par for the course in all of human history. As recently as the 1860s, people in some rural parts of the USA would worry about going hungry. Now the problem is obesity. I assume you know this, but did you know obesity is also a problem in Mexico?

Again, just so we are clear, there is and always has been a problem with humanity. I understand we can debate how much progress has been made and what direction we are heading, but the key is there is a problem - this is unmistakable and not invented.

Quote: FrGamble

Again, just so we are clear, there is and always has been a problem with humanity. I understand we can debate how much progress has been made and what direction we are heading, but the key is there is a problem - this is unmistakable and not invented.

Yes, but you're getting off on a tangent.

We were arguing, acrimoniously, about the causes, not the extent. Your side is original sin, mine is progressing towards a better civilization. You took the tangent on my comment bout current trends.

Quote: FrGamble

We both realize that the problem with humanity is not a myth,

I never called it a 'problem', it's just
the way it is. It has nothing to do with
being 'broken', or 'fallen'. It has nothing
to do with the made up concept of sin.
It has everything to do with eradicating
ignorance and advancing education.
To advance is our nature, something the
Church has always tried to quash at every
turn.

The number of Christian apologists out there
trying to rewrite Church history on their
involvement with science and advancement
is breathtaking. When I was a junior in HS,
50 years ago this year, I took a class called
History of the Middle Ages. I loved history,
I majored in it at college. We were taught, over
and over, it was in the textbook, the biggest
impediment to the advance of science was
the Catholic Church.

It was history, even the Church didn't oppose
it. It wasn't till Vatican II that they started to
try and spin it more in their favor. Here's
a great article that I'm sure the padre won't
read that tells the truth about the Church and
science.

http://nobeliefs.com/comments10.htm

"The Christian Dark Ages represents a time in the history of Europe where scientific advancement not only halted but went backwards. The hole left by the Dark Ages bears the imprint of scientific ignorance that lasted longer than the Roman Empire. Imagine where scientific advancement would stand today if not for the scars left by Christianity."

Humanity isn't 'broken', but the Church sure
was for about a thousand years.

Quote: FrGamble

Again, just so we are clear, there is and always has been a problem with humanity. I understand we can debate how much progress has been made and what direction we are heading, but the key is there is a problem - this is unmistakable and not invented.

Evolution of ideas, not just the biological body means we are slowly moving forward, in small steps, but as a ratchet, and able to advance beyond what has come before, without any deus ex machina.

Quote: TheCesspit

Evolution of ideas, not just the biological body means we are slowly moving forward

Not only was scientific curiosity banned by
the Church, so was religious curiosity.

In 860, Pope Nicholas I, sitting high on a throne built specially for the occasion in the town square, pronounced against all people who expressed interest in reading the Bible, and reaffirmed its banned public use (Papal Decree). In 1073, Pope Gregory supported and confirmed the ban, and in 1198, Pope Innocent III declared that anybody caught reading the Bible would be stoned to death by ‘soldiers of the Church military’ (Diderot’s Encyclopedia, 1759). In 1229, the Council of Toulouse, ‘to be spoken of with detestation’, passed another Decree ‘that strictly prohibits laics from having in their possession either the Old or New Testaments; or from translating them into the vulgar tongue’. By the 14th Century, possession of a Bible by the laity was a criminal offence and punishable by whipping, confiscation of real and personal property, and burning at the stake.

I'm so sorry you were taught over and over in school that the Church was an impediment to the advance of science because it is blatantly false. It must have been awkward in your science classes when they talked about the monk Gregor Mendel or Rev. Nicolaus Copernicus, Louis Pasteur, Alexander Fleming, Msgr. Lematrie, and Fr. Roger Boscavich.

Please remember that one of the fundamental teachings of the Church is that the world is created with laws and order by God and therefore can be studied. What is more God reveals Himself in the world of nature around us and therefore encourages its study. The fact that the universe is ordered and follows establish laws and is worthy of study comes from a belief in God.