Catholic sacrament of the week.

Quote: FrGamble

I think you have a hard time making the cannibal or vampire stuff stick

Pagan rituals like this have no place
in modern society. Apart from being
disgusting, they accomplish nothing
except to keep the cult status of the
Church alive and well.

I agree with Nareed that Judaism is
the least convoluted of modern
religions. All a Jew has to do is believe
in god, that's it. He doesn't even have
to do the holidays and he'll still be
a Jew.

Quote: Nareed

So we can analyze any substance, anywhere in the universe down to its constituent particles, except the magical flat bread that miraculously becomes something we cannot analyze either.

When I say Judaism is the least irrational religion I know, I mean it lacks these kinds of mystical nonsense (though it has plenty of mystical nonsense of its own).

When we analyze anything, including a host, even down to its constituent particles you would never find a little sign that says, "this is bread". In fact the more we drill down into something the more its specific essence seems to melt away. I imagine under an electron microscope a host of bread looks very similar to a banana. All I am saying is that the essence of what makes something a chair, a stone, a piece of bread, or an incarnate deity is not observable through our senses, but only our intellect. You could stare as Jesus all day but you are not going to see a neon sign or halo flashing above His head saying, "This is God!" Think also of your soul, you are not going to find that in a microscope.

Quote: FrGamble

Think also of your soul, you are not going to find that in a microscope.

Now that's more in line with Jewish mystical nonsense.

Good we don't want to lose touch with our roots.

Quote: FrGamble

When we analyze anything, including a host, even down to its constituent particles you would never find a little sign that says, "this is bread".

Are you sure? we know what makes up bread, not just baked but in several stages of digestion. Forensic scientists can identify stomach contents quite precisely.

The point is we can analyze the host at various levels, and find it's flour, water, salt and whatever else. Then we can analyze what happens as it is digested. Then we can see whether it turns into human flesh or whether, as it will inevitably do, merely provides the energy, nutrients and trace elements expected form a baked mixture of flours, water, salt and other things (it's not like I have a recipe).

This is something than can be tested with a very high degree of precision. Human flesh contains proteins and fats not found in wafers, and a different set of trace elements as well.

I assume this has never been tested, because the results would be the magic wafers do nothing more than add a trivial amount of calories, carbohydrates, sodium chloride and water to a person who consumes it.

Given this, I find it highly disturbing anyone would believe it transforms into the blood and body of a man dead for 2,000 years. And even more disturbing to believe this would be desirable if it were possible. It seems like a mixture of necrophilia and cannibalism.

Which, incidentally, matches the creed that life is pain and sacrifice, and "salvation" must be found only after death.

Quote:

All I am saying is that the essence of what makes something a chair, a stone, a piece of bread, or an incarnate deity is not observable through our senses, but only our intellect.

That's a Platonist fallacy. The senses don't operate independently of the mind, even in lower animals like dogs. You can trust your sense perception will let you know what you're looking at is, because your mind is extremely good at integrating perceptions into concepts. Thus you can recognize a chair even when faced with a design you've never seen before.

Quote: Nareed

I assume this has never been tested, because the results would be the magic wafers do nothing more than add a trivial amount of calories, carbohydrates, sodium chloride and water to a person who consumes it.

Actually they have tested hosts before and they discovered what the Church would have told them they would have discovered - it has all the accidents of bread. If they would have discovered human flesh then that would have been surprising more to the Church than anyone. Transubstantiation is not a transforming of the accidents only the substance, or essence of a thing. You can use the analogy to the Christian understanding of Jesus Himself. Run Him through scientific tests and you will find He is a man like any other. However, the soul and divinity of Jesus is truly present making this ordinary man into something truly extraordinary.

Quote:

Given this, I find it highly disturbing anyone would believe it transforms into the blood and body of a man dead for 2,000 years.

No Christian believes Jesus is dead.

Quote:

Which, incidentally, matches the creed that life is pain and sacrifice, and "salvation" must be found only after death.

You certainly aren't speaking about the Christian creed. Life with Jesus is one of joy and love, and salvation is tasted first here on earth long before our happiness in this life is perfected and made eternal with a glorious body and immortal soul in Heaven.

Quote:

That's a Platonist fallacy. The senses don't operate independently of the mind, even in lower animals like dogs. You can trust your sense perception will let you know what you're looking at is, because your mind is extremely good at integrating perceptions into concepts. Thus you can recognize a chair even when faced with a design you've never seen before.

The fact that you can recognize a chair in a design you have never seen before is proof that the essence or substance of "chairness" is not locked in your sense perception. You are correct it is your mind that integrates perceptions into concepts that have no sensibility in your mind.

Quote: FrGamble

Transubstantiation is not a transforming of the accidents only the substance, or essence of a thing.

The essence of the wafer is that it is a wafer. You can't change that by eating it, except to break it down to its gross constituent elements.

Quote:

No Christian believes Jesus is dead.

Oh. I'm afraid I have some bad news for you. Jesus was killed 2,000 years ago or so.

Quote:

The fact that you can recognize a chair in a design you have never seen before is proof that the essence or substance of "chairness" is not locked in your sense perception. You are correct it is your mind that integrates perceptions into concepts that have no sensibility in your mind.

The senses aren't responsible for processing the data they receive. You may as well blame the odometer for not driving the car. But sense perception is integrated into your mind's processes, which is why you can recognize a chair just by looking at it.

Quote: FrGamble

However, the soul and divinity of Jesus is truly present making this ordinary man into something truly extraordinary.
.

In theory yes, in practice not so much. Lapsed
Catholics are legion in number, not an extraordinary
record for such an extraordinary statement. Because
the 'transformation' is 100% in you head and zero
percent in reality, it tends not to last for long.

Quote: Nareed

Oh. I'm afraid I have some bad news for you. Jesus was killed 2,000 years ago or so.
.

You beat me to it, Nareed. He died a couple
thousand years ago and remains solidly in
his grave. To paraphrase Mark Twain, 'rumors
of his rising have been greatly exaggerated.'

Quote: Nareed

The essence of the wafer is that it is a wafer. You can't change that by eating it, except to break it down to its gross constituent elements.

I'm trying to remain patient because this is extremely difficult for a materialist to get their minds around, but in the miracle of the Eucharist the essence of the wafer is changed into the Real Presence of Jesus, while the accidents or appearance of the wafer remain the same.

Quote:

Oh. I'm afraid I have some bad news for you. Jesus was killed 2,000 years ago or so.

I have good news for you, "He has been raised!"

Quote:

The senses aren't responsible for processing the data they receive. You may as well blame the odometer for not driving the car. But sense perception is integrated into your mind's processes, which is why you can recognize a chair just by looking at it.

Or why you can even imagine a chair. Sense perception is not always needed to think of or understand what a chair is. Our senses provide information that is learned and understood by the mind but the mind is not limited or imprisoned by the information given by the senses. We can imagine a type of chair we have never seen before, this is called innovation or invention. A new better type of chair that no one has ever seen is formed first in our mind before we or anyone else can ever sense it.