Kierkegaard quote

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November 20th, 2014 at 1:33:53 PM permalink
Mosca
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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edited, see below. I meant to quote Nareed.
November 20th, 2014 at 1:34:48 PM permalink
Mosca
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 22
Posts: 730
Quote: Nareed
From my admittedly limited knowledge, I think a social and economic collapse similar to that in the Soviet Union in the late 90s.


That's kind of what I was thinking too, Nareed. Much of Western civilization is distinctly unChristlike. But go further. What if, after the fall of Rome, Christians lived like Christ, and practiced what he preached? (That IS exactly what I meant, Face.)

IMO it would look like the Unabomber's manifesto; an agrarian communal society.

I don't think humans can pull it off. I often say, describing why I'm not a believer, that I'm just not wired that way. Humanity is not wired to be static. We have to be who and what we are. Within that, we can allow for Christian values and virtues. But as a species is isn't going to happen.
November 20th, 2014 at 3:59:57 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
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Quote: Mosca
Much of Western civilization is distinctly unChristlike.


It is indeed.

I don't know all that much about Christianity and its associated philosophy, but the emphasis in economics focuses towards distribution, much as communism did. That's not all there is, and not all that matters, but it's a start. Incentives are an important part, too.

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But go further. What if, after the fall of Rome, Christians lived like Christ, and practiced what he preached? (That IS exactly what I meant, Face.)


Edward Gibbon blames Christianity for the fall of the Roman empire, FWIW. Of course, only ("only") the Western empire fell. the Eastern empire, or Byzantine empire, kept on going for a few centuries yet.

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I don't think humans can pull it off. I often say, describing why I'm not a believer, that I'm just not wired that way. Humanity is not wired to be static. We have to be who and what we are. Within that, we can allow for Christian values and virtues. But as a species is isn't going to happen.


Humans are not wired to be selfless, to place everything and everyone above their own well-being. We are wired to be nice, most of the time, to others, to care about them to some degree. We have empathy, in other words.

I've more to say about this, but work is getting in the way...
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
November 20th, 2014 at 4:51:48 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
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I don't think we need to keep this discussion about what life would be like if we truly lived Christlike lives so theoretical. All one need do is visit the nearest monastery or convent. I truly think this would be a worthy field trip for us all and help us in this discussion. Anyone can visit these places and if you have never been I guarantee you that it will be a spiritual and uplifting experience. Join them for a liturgy if you can or simply walk the grounds and ask to speak to a monk. It is close to an agrarian communal society.

Also I'd like to say more on Nareed's observation that it is not natural to live a Christian life and be selfless -that is sooooo TRUE! Christ calls forth something new and hidden within us, a supernatural part of us. Truly SUPER (meaning above) our nature. These types of discussions are much harder to have than the other apologetic round about discussions on other threads and I just don't have the time I wish I had right now at work. Thanks though everybody.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
November 20th, 2014 at 4:53:00 PM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: Evenbob
I like: "You can do it or don't do it, what's
the difference in the end."


I'd obviously argue that it makes a ton of difference. Of course, I suppose we'd need to define "end". End of my life? My choices have great impact. End of time? Well, maybe not so much.

I'm curious why Nareed finds it "cynical", though. I don't find it self-serving, I just see it as a truth. No matter how keen you are on a decision, there's always a part of it that you'll regret. Even something I'm completely committed to, like hockey, I can still find regret. Regret that I spend so much time, so much money, regret that I'm all crippled up. It might be my passion, it might fill my soul, but there's still some regret in there.

And I guess that's what I'm saying. Even the greatest and most selfless acts have a cost. Good and bad cannot exist independently. Even if you were to have the whole of man to completely live as Jesus did, conflict would arise. It has to. The only question is "in what ways".
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
November 20th, 2014 at 5:59:05 PM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
Threads: 6
Posts: 1600
Quote: FrGamble
I don't think we need to keep this discussion about what life would be like if we truly lived Christlike lives so theoretical. All one need do is visit the nearest monastery or convent. I truly think this would be a worthy field trip for us all and help us in this discussion. Anyone can visit these places and if you have never been I guarantee you that it will be a spiritual and uplifting experience. Join them for a liturgy if you can or simply walk the grounds and ask to speak to a monk. It is close to an agrarian communal society.

Also I'd like to say more on Nareed's observation that it is not natural to live a Christian life and be selfless -that is sooooo TRUE! Christ calls forth something new and hidden within us, a supernatural part of us. Truly SUPER (meaning above) our nature. These types of discussions are much harder to have than the other apologetic round about discussions on other threads and I just don't have the time I wish I had right now at work. Thanks though everybody.


I lived in a convent for 3 months in 1980. It was a huge education about the women there and the decisions they made, the quality of their lives, and the level of their intelligence and thoughtfulness. I came away very impressed and respectful of their calling and everyday lives. But, for whatever reason, I did not equate their lives with the concept of living as Christ would in this day and age. Instead, it was one of service to fellow humans through many small but significant acts of kindness, education, counsel, support, and/or by example. They did not proselytize, judge, or preach; they were beside you or behind you, not leading you, and they were very respectful themselves of people like me who were not called even to Catholicism (let alone the veil).

Not sure that I'm really doing a good job of parsing the difference, but it never felt like they saw themselves as Christ's representatives, though their lives were filled with meaningful order within the Christian guidelines. More like helpmeets.
Never doubt a small group of concerned citizens can change the world; it's the only thing ever has
November 20th, 2014 at 9:25:45 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
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Quote: Face
I'm curious why Nareed finds it "cynical", though.


I don't find it "cynical." I find it cynical :)

Because it says there's no point in making a choice. It implies all choices are wrong, ergo you'll regret it no matter what you choose.

Ok, maybe it's nihilistic rather than cynical.

Rather like the famous Gary Larson cartoon of the guy in hell standing in front of two doors labeled "Damned if you do" and "Damned if you don't," and a devil prodding him saying "come on. it's got to be one or the other."


Quote:
Even something I'm completely committed to, like hockey, I can still find regret. Regret that I spend so much time, so much money, regret that I'm all crippled up. It might be my passion, it might fill my soul, but there's still some regret in there.


There shouldn't be. Many choices involve a trade-off. You can't choose everything, after all. Of course, it's not easy to say "this is the right choice," sometimes, until after years have passed. so maybe afterwards you find some of the trade-offs required by the choice not to your liking, as you explained, but if overall you're happy with your choice, then there is no regret. You may even find yourself wishing you'd done otherwise, but only from time to time. I wouldn't consider that regret, either.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
November 21st, 2014 at 2:29:58 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Quite a few people visit religious orders for their vacations. A nice quiet contemplative rest with meals, a library and interesting people. I'd be a bit embarrassed to do it though: can't understand Latin, can't sing. I should probably rename my cat Benedictine though, since she wakes me up at 4:00 each morning.

I wonder if our resident expert on such matters, FrGamble, knows when Convents adopted the women only rule that was previously for Nunneries only. Convents in the UK used to have strict 50:50 limits on the sexes of members.
November 21st, 2014 at 8:08:03 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
I don't think we need to keep this discussion about what life would be like if we truly lived Christlike lives so theoretical. All one need do is visit the nearest monastery or convent.


What if entropy decreased?

It doesn't, of course. It increases. That's why when you scramble an egg you can't unscramble it. But entropy can reach an equilibrium and even decrease, if energy is injected into an open system. That's why a living body, like that of a human being, can sustain itself.

Monasteries, communes, retreats and other off-the-beaten-path institutions can exist, and thrive, so long as they are an open system taking infusions of cash and resources from outside (or they produce such things themselves; I do know some monasteries produce products or services for sale).

Taking my analogy further along, while the USSR was broke and faced shortages, mass inconvenience (try standing in line hours a week just to get food and see how you like it), and so on, I assure you a certain Mr. Gorbachev and his pals in the Politburo enjoyed a lifestyle more akin to that of an old railroad tycoon or mining nabob.


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Also I'd like to say more on Nareed's observation that it is not natural to live a Christian life and be selfless -that is sooooo TRUE!


"It cannot possibly be that easy," I said to myself.

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Christ calls forth something new and hidden within us, a supernatural part of us.


See? I knew it couldn't be so easy.

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Truly SUPER (meaning above) our nature.


More like "CONTRA." (meaning against) our nature.

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These types of discussions are much harder to have than the other apologetic round about discussions on other threads and I just don't have the time I wish I had right now at work. Thanks though everybody.


We should make a pact to meet at next year's WoVCon(*) (if someone hosts it), and schedule a few hours for debate, maybe over coffee. Whoever slaps the other one first pays for dinner ;)

(*) I suggest WoVCon because I think plenty of other attendees there would like to meet you as well.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
November 21st, 2014 at 11:22:13 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18629
Quote: Nareed
I do know some monasteries produce products or services for sale).


http://www.assumptionabbey.org/fruitcakes.asp

Heh, my sister sent me one when I was joking about the hardiness of fruitcakes.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
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