Kierkegaard quote

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November 20th, 2014 at 7:31:12 AM permalink
Mosca
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Posts: 730
"The Bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand, we are obliged to act accordingly."

Discussions (arguments?) between Christians and atheists tend to take one of two paths. They are either about the proof and lack of proof of gods, or about the hypocrisy of Christians and atheists (including wars and persecutions).

My question is, what would the world look like if Christians actually lived like Christ instructed? Are great works and great social constructs part of a Christ-like world, or is Christianity an overlay on humanity? Are men like George Patton or Richard Nixon, or Paul Tibbets, driven by their Christianness? (I'm not impugning any of these men, all great men in their own way [even Nixon, a classic Greek tragedy].) If men acted like Christians, would we have all the good and bad of the western world that we have today?

Sorry that this isn't as well thought out a question as I want it to be. But we have enough thoughtful Christians and atheists here who can help round it out.
November 20th, 2014 at 7:33:52 AM permalink
Mosca
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 22
Posts: 730
I got that quote from a friend of mine, a Presbyterian minister. Here is the source:

15 of Soren Kierkegaard’s Most Challenging Quotes
November 20th, 2014 at 8:00:38 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
I think quoting the Bible is about as cowardly as quoting the Talmud or the Koran.

Are those feeding the homeless in Fort Liquordale doing their Christian Duty to despoil the neighborhood with unsightly trash?
November 20th, 2014 at 8:36:51 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Thanks Mosca, great quote. Kierkegaard never seems to hold back any punches. If I could summarize what Kierkegaard meant it would be by quoting W.C. Fields who when caught reading the Bible said, "I am looking for loopholes." We, including myself, like to look for those loopholes because it is so very challenging to live as Christ lived.

I had a funeral today where I read the One Solitary Life essay by Dr. James Allen Francis in 1926:
He was born in an obscure village
The child of a peasant woman
He grew up in another obscure village
Where he worked in a carpenter shop
Until he was thirty when public opinion turned against him

He never wrote a book
He never held an office
He never went to college
He never visited a big city
He never travelled more than two hundred miles
From the place where he was born
He did none of the things
Usually associated with greatness
He had no credentials but himself

He was only thirty three

His friends ran away
One of them denied him
He was turned over to his enemies
And went through the mockery of a trial
He was nailed to a cross between two thieves
While dying, his executioners gambled for his clothing
The only property he had on earth

When he was dead
He was laid in a borrowed grave
Through the pity of a friend

Nineteen centuries have come and gone
And today Jesus is the central figure of the human race
And the leader of mankind's progress
All the armies that have ever marched
All the navies that have ever sailed
All the parliaments that have ever sat
All the kings that ever reigned put together
Have not affected the life of mankind on earth
As powerfully as that one solitary life.

The thing that struck me when I came back and read this post from Mosca is that Christ did this through His humility and perfect love. If I'm honest I often set out to do great things driven by ambition or a desire to impress others. If I lived as Christ did I wouldn't have this motivation and my fear is would I then accomplish anything? Jesus of course is the living paradox in that great things, in fact the greatest thing ever, is accomplished by trust in our Heavenly Father and humility - Lord grant me that same faith!

One final thought: Is my definition of great things influenced more by the secular world or by the Gospels? In the eyes of God is helping someone deal with the grief of losing a loved one more important than building a brand new beautiful Church or raising a great army?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
November 20th, 2014 at 10:52:22 AM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: Mosca

My question is, what would the world look like if Christians actually lived like Christ instructed? Are great works and great social constructs part of a Christ-like world, or is Christianity an overlay on humanity? Are men like George Patton or Richard Nixon, or Paul Tibbets, driven by their Christianness? (I'm not impugning any of these men, all great men in their own way [even Nixon, a classic Greek tragedy].) If men acted like Christians, would we have all the good and bad of the western world that we have today?

Sorry that this isn't as well thought out a question as I want it to be. But we have enough thoughtful Christians and atheists here who can help round it out.


I'd have to ask what you mean by "as Christ instructed".

Usually when I hear that, I think "as the Bible says". After all, it's the word of God, and Christ is God (or at least the son of God, which was... erm... Himself, so same thing?) I guess what I'm saying is are you talking about what was said during the 30 years of mortal Jesus, or what was said during the eternity of God. I think that makes a big difference. After all, Jesus was the render unto Caeser, turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor guy. Expound into the entire works and you'll be stoning gays, and stoning witches, and stoning the lost and unbelieving. It makes a difference.

But let's d best case scenario and say we're only talking about perfect Jesus. I'd have to wonder also how different things would be. I mean, there's Christian CEO's, for sure. So they might "render unto Caeser" and not care about absurd taxes on the rich. They might not care for wealth and material things and would give away their fortunes. But if all this was true, would that person reach CEO in the first place? I would think no, so in this alternate universe, the CEO would just be replaced by someone without theism and everything would be the same. Just different people holding the positions.

Small scale, maybe. Perhaps these millions of supposed Christians who, in this alternate universe, are actually acting as Christ, would by their own leave donate and assist the infirmed. Maybe there's less food stamp programs, maybe there's less homeless mobs, maybe there's less draw on the state because they provide relief on their own. But still, there'd be those that cannot or will not do for themselves, so the presence of these forgotten people would still exist. And these pious ones who give it all away? Eventually one will get into a pinch; a sickness, an injury, whatever, and having given everything away, will have nothing left for themselves. Now they are also one who needs more. The cycle continues.

Violence? Well, that's just human nature. Look at us here. I love the good father, I consider him a friend. But he has absolutely pissed me right off more than once. It's not on purpose, there was no intent whatsoever. But because our beliefs differ, it causes strife. I'm sure he can say the same about me, or EB, or Nareed. Fortunately, we here understand what a difference of opinion is, and we deal and get passed it. In real life, it's not as easy. If someone makes me mad here, I can escape it. I just turn off, take my time to cool off and contemplate, and come back with proper communication. If you have someone right in your face, though, that becomes impossible.

Conflict will always exist. Even the most righteous and innocent gesture gets received differently between persons. For example, I've been in a pinch lately. No job, no money, tore up my shoulder, going through custody issues, etc. There has been more than one person who has reached out with offers of assistance, both emotionally and financially. That is Christ-like. But because of who I am, it creates conflict. For whatever reason I take offense to charity for myself. The offers, those are kind. But if anyone were to have actually sent me money, I'd have been pissed off indeed. Why, I dunno. But thinking of a band of worshipers coming to my door bringing aid and succor... it wouldn't be pretty. I might be able to give a simple "no thank you", but any pressure after that would quickly escalate into yelling and/or fisticuffs.

It's human nature. Abolish all forms of religion, abolish atheism, or let everyone choose whatever they want, none of it matters. We are all unique and unequal, always have been, always will be. Conflict is eternal.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
November 20th, 2014 at 11:02:31 AM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
As an aside, Kierkegaard is the author of one of my favorite quotes, one which I have pondered for many years.

"I see it all perfectly; there are two possible situations - one can either do this or that. My honest opinion and my friendly advice is this: do it or do not do it - you will regret both."

It might be my favorite quote ever. And I think it applies to this topic.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
November 20th, 2014 at 11:42:32 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Face
do it or do not do it - you will regret both."


Exactly.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
November 20th, 2014 at 11:55:25 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Face
"I see it all perfectly; there are two possible situations - one can either do this or that. My honest opinion and my friendly advice is this: do it or do not do it - you will regret both."


That's even more cynical than: "Life's a bitch and then you die. And if you believe in reincarnation, you get to do it all over again."
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
November 20th, 2014 at 12:11:10 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Nareed
That's even more cynical than: "Life's a bitch and then you die. And if you believe in reincarnation, you get to do it all over again."


I like: "You can do it or don't do it, what's
the difference in the end."
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
November 20th, 2014 at 12:36:09 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Mosca
My question is, what would the world look like if Christians actually lived like Christ instructed?


From my admittedly limited knowledge, I think a social and economic collapse similar to that in the Soviet Union in the late 90s.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
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