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Quote: Fleastiff

Germany and Japan steel mills were bombed into oblivion, it was only USA steel plants that made it through WW two unscathed by bombs. Then we spent money to rebuild Europe, but not UK steel, and we fought a very profitable war with Korea that gave millions to the Japanese steel.

So you take old steel mills in the USA and add tough labor unions, then you add new steel mills abroad with their products aimed at the USA.

Surprize?

Quote: Evenbob

The unions killed US steel, as they kill
all things. Like the US auto industry.

Unions equal mediocre people earning
wages only smart people should earn.

Result: Epic fail.

As a kid I saw the results of all of this, collapse of the industry. We have several great mixed-use areas that used to be mills, the size they were is simply staggering.

The beginning of the end was 1959. A major strike by the USW because the companies wanted to be able to put in new technology and reduce crew sizes. Part of what caused the recession back then. (At the time all of the industry was under one union contract so the strike shut everything down.) Steel was imported in quantity for the first time in a century. Importers demanded and got longer term contracts and a foothold.

Vietnam kept it going good in the 1960s or else it would have collapsed by the early 1970s. Old timers tell stories of how starting in the late 60s the companies would no longer be replacing things that needed to be replaced. Things with a 10 or so year life cycle. At the time nobody really noticed. Hindsight is 20/20. The 1960s were seen as bad times for the mils looking back, the "lazy worker" started becoming more and more the norm and union contracts began their spiral out of control.

1979 was when I first remember understanding what was happening in the news. Right after everything fell apart. Local towns wiped out, it made me careful about career for life. Scary as can be. I am a "depression baby" in that regard, like those people who lived thru that young. It tool 25-30 years for many of those towns to get healthy again, some still are not.

Read the book "And the Wolf Finally Came" to get more details.

Quote: Evenbob

The unions killed US steel, as they kill
all things. Like the US auto industry.

It doesn't faze you one bit that Japan and Germany are much more unionized than the USA, does it?

You see it's not the unions you hate so much, it's people. People and America and it's constitution. Call it what it is, jealousy.

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Unions equal mediocre people earning
wages only smart people should earn.

Smart people like bartenders and cab drivers? Stop it, your killing me.

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Result: Epic fail.

Indeed. We all have much to be thankful to unions for. Every time anyone has a safe working place or a retirement of any kind, thank the UNION. Anytime anyone receives any benefit from a holiday, thank a UNION. Unions are what made America great.

Anytime anyone in this country receives a wage higher than a third world country, or has safe building materials or a respirator in a mine shaft, thank the UNION.

Quote: Evenbob

The unions killed US steel, as they kill
all things. Like the US auto industry.

Unions equal mediocre people earning
wages only smart people should earn.

Result: Epic fail.

Correct yourself. Globalization and free trade killed US steel. US Steel and other manufacturing would be robust with proper protectionist measures and with unions in place. Perhaps the middle class would be stronger too with more manufacturing and other jobs.

Now you have a race to the bottom with people buying goods and services globally at the cheapest price while exploiting people and the environment.

There is no argument that unions helped create the working conditions that we now take for granted. There is also no doubt that the unions were a major part of their own demise when they had the power to push the companies to benefits that the business was unable to sustain, think GM and the gold plated pension plans.

Every person in the country voted to allow the manufacturers to go off shore including the vast majority of the unionized workers. They voted every time they got out their wallets and went to Walmart and bought from a non union employer who was importing from the cheapest off shore manufacturer they could find. What choice did the other retailers or manufacturers have as Wal-Mart ate up the business. Could have been stopped then, too late now.

I agree, if I happen to be agreeing with anyone. If not, I disagree.

Quote: kenarman

There is also no doubt that the unions were a major part of their own demise when they had the power to push the companies to benefits that the business was unable to sustain, think GM and the gold plated pension plans.

Other than actual union corruption, I do think businesses need to think about transparency when they deal with unions.

Over and over and over x 1,000,000, people grow suspicious that someone is hiding something or taking advantage of them, and imagine conspiracies whether there is one or not when things are not transparent. Breeds distrust.

Of course, union people can be led to believe profits are being underreported, or diverted, or whatever. I see suspicion every day on these 2 boards about the unknown, whether it's casinos, new members, the government, whatever.

Other than love, it's apparently what makes the world go round: Suspicion.

Quote: petroglyph

Anytime anyone in this country receives a wage higher than a third world country, or has safe building materials or a respirator in a mine shaft, thank the UNION.

Nonsense.

While unions did fight for many benefits, workplace safety was on its way well before this. Air brakes and and auto-couplings came about because capitalists saw the danger to workers and invented something to protect them. The famous $5-8/hour day was put in place by the most anti-union of car manufacturers.

And please be fair, union demands have destroyed many companies from Eastern Airlines to GM. FCA will soon make no passenger cars in the USA, only trucks and much of that is because of the chicken tax.

How many unionized companies are tops in their industry in the USA?

Quote: AZDuffman

How many unionized companies are tops in their industry in the USA?

Different priorities.

Sweatshops can produce beautiful cheap products. If you like that sweatshop labor.

Quote: rxwine

Different priorities.

Sweatshops can produce beautiful cheap products. If you like that sweatshop labor.

That does not answer the question. I said name some unionized companies that lead their industries.

Neither Toyota nor GM can be considered "sweatshops." One is a leader the other needed tens of billions of government money to stay in business.

Nucor Steel is not unionized but US Steel is. Who has done better the last 40 years?

So, please state what unionized USA companies lead their fields?

Quote: AZDuffman

Nonsense.

While unions did fight for many benefits, workplace safety was on its way well before this. Air brakes and and auto-couplings came about because capitalists saw the danger to workers and invented something to protect them.

That was well after the Ludlow massacre, coal disasters, ww2 lockouts. There are offenses on both sides.

I don't think working people have much of a chance without banding together utilizing collective bargaining. The word "union" anymore is almost like using profanity and I think it is mostly because many will not look at it objectively. I think private unions are mostly destroyed and gone for a generation, and much of it is their fault.

We are all in a union whether or not we want to acknowledge it. The United States banded together because they realized there is strength in numbers. The AMA is a union, the same with the fisherman's associations. They all pay fee's or dues, and are represented by some cabal.

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The famous $5-8/hour day was put in place by the most anti-union of car manufacturers.

Funny that, many unions were organized by corporations, to emasculate the few workers who would actually rebel.

I have been on both sides as a worker and an employer. My experience as you know is with semi-skilled labor. It was easiest for me when bidding contract jobs to be able to call up the labor pool rep and have him send me someone already qualified, who I didn't have to carry in between projects.

I also was somewhat screwed by a couple workers who were union, I blamed that personally on their lack of character, not the union rep?

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And please be fair, union demands have destroyed many companies from Eastern Airlines to GM.

Yeah, I think some contracts were ridiculous, and I as an employer, would never have agreed with the UAW contracts. Last I heard starting wage at GM was 9 bucks? It may be up a bit by now.

But for every contract made that seems unfair, recognize that there is two sides to each contract. All those ridiculous contracts were agreed to by management who often received some ridiculous package themselves, right on up the food chain. I can't blame anybody feeding a family for doing the best they can for themselves and family's. I think that is human nature.

For the lazy worker? Fire them, and have the guts to back it up. People need order, they haven't done well with responsibility.\

I mentioned before I have worked with people fired by noon. I have seen the business agent come remove 2 guys off the job on different occasions for basically being incompetent. People got fired where I was just for not being liked, or obnoxious. There were some grievances, some overturned, mostly we just went about our way. I have been fired, and it was never for what was on the termination slip. I never complained to the union, and everyone that has fired me at one time or another has since rehired me. Like I told them when asked if I was carrying a grudge, "nah, its just business".

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only trucks and much of that is because of the chicken tax.

I'm not sure what that is, I'm not following labor issues much anymore. My world disappeared someplace and this one doesn't look very similar to the one I lived in?

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How many unionized companies are tops in their industry in the USA?

I would have said Ford pick-ups. I don't know if any of them are number one? I know Boeing and Lockhead are pretty high up there, but that is largely do to government subsidies and the MIC.

An enjoyable and short read : Rubbermaid was the best in the business until WM killed them with sterilite. Now it is hard to get quality products at any price.

We don't support our workers, we don't support our vets, our manufacturing, constitution, what is left to fight for?

Quote: petroglyph

We are all in a union whether or not we want to acknowledge it. The United States banded together because they realized there is strength in numbers. The AMA is a union, the same with the fisherman's associations. They all pay fee's or dues, and are represented by some cabal. Funny that, many unions were organized by corporations, to emasculate the few workers who would actually rebel.

You are playing games with words. When you say "union" it means labor union, not a country, state, or anything else. As to the AMA it is an "association" as are some other unions. In some cases, unions make sense. Things like the jointfiters, boilermakers, or welders. They actually have apprenticeship programs. They provide specialized workers for short term work. For the worker, they show their card and get on the list of jobs. For the employer, they can have 10 welders there (figuratively) tomorrow, no need to interview or vet. When the work is done, both move on. They are more of an agent than a union and provide the employer with a service. OTOH, the SEIU provides employers with no added value at all, and are actually a drag on productivity.

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I have been on both sides as a worker and an employer. My experience as you know is with semi-skilled labor. It was easiest for me when bidding contract jobs to be able to call up the labor pool rep and have him send me someone already qualified, who I didn't have to carry in between projects.

I have been in management and labor, though never managed union workers. In the union I got virtually nothing, maybe time and a half on Sunday and holidays plus some restrictions on store hours. Know who the union protected most? The incompetent and the lazy. The people I saw who got their jobs back were just horrible. Because of them the rest of us had to work harder.

Oh, and my dues at least in part helped the interest of Paul Castellano and the Gambino Crime Family! No, I am not kidding.

Quote:

Yeah, I think some contracts were ridiculous, and I as an employer, would never have agreed with the UAW contracts. Last I heard starting wage at GM was 9 bucks? It may be up a bit by now.

But for every contract made that seems unfair, recognize that there is two sides to each contract. All those ridiculous contracts were agreed to by management who often received some ridiculous package themselves, right on up the food chain. I can't blame anybody feeding a family for doing the best they can for themselves and family's. I think that is human nature.

You need to hear more, it was set at $14 in 2008 and going up since this month's new contract. Yes, agreed to by management to avoid bankrupting the place. 1970 was a horrible UAW strike at GM, after that they started just giving in. Eventually they reached a nadir with the "jobs bank" paying workers full wage to sit at home. The Table of Contents to most UAW plants agreements go 20 pages. How many work rules are needed?