Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Stephen Hawking doesn't understand .

And you and your religion do. The
Church and science, oil and water,
just like always. Hawking would be
right next to Galileo if this was 400
years ago.

Quote: Evenbob

And you and your religion do. The
Church and science, oil and water,
just like always. Hawking would be
right next to Galileo if this was 400
years ago.

It actually is a pretty simple concept to understand. I don't know if the quote was out of context or not correct but it doesn't follow that just because there was not linear time as we can understand it as human beings then there was absolute nothingness. Not only does this rule out a being outside of time it solves nothing. How then if there was nothing, not even God, was there a Big Bang? Religion and Science while different actually are meant to support and help on another. The Church has always been one of the greatest supporters of science. Remember Galileo was pushing an idea first discovered by a Catholic cleric. His silencing and house arrest had more to do with pride and politics on the part of the Church and some on the part of Galileo himself. Just because Hawking is not a very good philosopher does not mean he isn't a brilliant scientist.

Quote: FrGambl

Just because Hawking is not a very good philosopher does not mean he isn't a brilliant scientist.

That's certainly big of you and the Church.
But I think I'll stick with Hawking over a
church who thought it was fine in their 'philosophy'
to torture and intimidate and forcibly convert
people to their religion for hundreds of years.
They Church can take their holier than thou
attitude and stick it.

Quote: Evenbob

That's certainly big of you and the Church.
But I think I'll stick with Hawking over a
church who thought it was fine in their 'philosophy'
to torture and intimidate and forcibly convert
people to their religion for hundreds of years.
They Church can take their holier than thou
attitude and stick it.

First of all the Church's philosophy and teaching would never condone the forced conversion of anyone or torture. Secondly, just think about it for a second and you will see Hawking's mistake. Hey, nobody's perfect and I know he has a big well deserved name and reputation but he can also be wrong. Thirdly, I don't know why you think it is being holier than thou just to point out a simple logical fallacy or poor philosophy.

Quote: FrGamble

you will see Hawking's mistake.

There is no mistake, but remember, everybody
but you is wrong. Even Hawking. We've established
that you're 100% right 100% of the time.

sarcasm alert

Quote: FrGamble

First of all the Church's philosophy and teaching would never condone the forced conversion of anyone or torture.

As was amply demonstrated during the Spanish Inquisition, among several other periods.

Quote: Nareed

As was amply demonstrated during the Spanish Inquisition, among several other periods.

You say this like it is so simple and maybe to you it is. However, a real historian would point out that the Spanish Inquisition had nothing to do with forced conversions and that the real atrocities were in the so called "courts" run by the state. Many times the Church rejected the atrocities committed during that time including the abuses perpetuated by clerics and other Church officials.

Quote: Evenbob

There is no mistake, but remember, everybody
but you is wrong. Even Hawking. We've established
that you're 100% right 100% of the time.

Do you seriously not see the mistake in saying that just because there was no time there was no possibility of there being anything? Come on the guy's not the Pope you can say he is wrong without making him into a bad guy. It is as clear as the nose on your face that his argument has no validity. I'm far from being right all the time and so is Hawking, and dare I say so are you.

By the way I think the reason you seem to think I am 100% right all the time and you are 100% is because we are debating often what the Church teachings. I am right about this a lot and you are wrong about this a lot, but that is only because I am a priest and you are an atheist. Think about how many times I have been wrong about atheism and you have been right, that is because I'm a Catholic priest and you are an atheist. I hope this solves your mystery and puts an end to your strange thought that I am being condescending or holier than thou. I happen to know Catholicism and you happen to know nothing (opps, I mean you know atheism).

Quote: FrGamble

You say this like it is so simple and maybe to you it is.

I say it like there are Jews to this day who have to keep their religion hidden from their community.

Quote:

Many times the Church rejected the atrocities committed during that time including the abuses perpetuated by clerics and other Church officials.

(emphasis emphatically added)

So when clerics and church officials are involved in abuses and atrocities, how does that keep the church itself from being involved?

This is the fetid corruption at the root of your organization. The well-defined hierarchy can insulate itself from anything, claiming the nebulous "church" wasn't involved in what clerics and church officials did.

Quote: Nareed

This is the fetid corruption at the root of your organization. The well-defined hierarchy can insulate itself from anything, claiming the nebulous "church" wasn't involved in what clerics and church officials did.

The Church is very slick is this regard, they
are the masters at putting layers between
themselves and any wrong doing. The state
did all the dirty work, but of course it was
at the behest of the Church. Why do we
have separation of Church and state now,
because for hundreds of years they looked
separate but were totally run by the Church.

"For centuries, monarchs ruled by the idea of divine right. Sometimes this began to be used by a monarch to support the notion that the king ruled both his own kingdom and Church within its boundaries, a theory known as caesaropapism. On the other side was the Catholic doctrine that the Pope, as the Vicar of Christ on earth, should have the ultimate authority over the Church, and indirectly over the state. Moreover, throughout the Middle Ages the Pope claimed the right to depose the Catholic kings of Western Europe."

It was the Reformation that really screwed the
Church, Luther was totally behind a real
separation of the state from the Church. This
was the beginning of the end of the power
of the Church.