Original Sin?

Quote: Nareed

Isn't one enough?

One only referring to Spain in its war with Islam at the time, suggesting more of a quarter for their enemies rather than death doesn't qualify as an endorsement of slavery, especially in the light of the constant teaching of the Roman Pontiffs throughout the period of slavery. In fact taking Evenbob's point about how prevalent and somehow necessary slavery was during that time (what an awful thought and argument by the way), the Church in its official teaching showed how very different it was from the world.

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Per your reasoning, slavery should have been abolished in all Portuguese colonies, like Brazil. as Portugal was then, as now, a Catholic country. Did this happen?

I refer you to the title of this thread again.

Quote: FrGamble

One only referring to Spain in its war with Islam at the time, suggesting more of a quarter for their enemies rather than death doesn't qualify as an endorsement of slavery, especially in the light of the constant teaching of the Roman Pontiffs throughout the period of slavery.

In other words, when a pope says something "wrong" you can claim that wasn't an infallible pronouncement nor the word of God.

So I guess dogs don't have souls, despite ample evidence to the contrary.

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I refer you to the title of this thread again.

And I refer you to your oft-repeated assertion that Christians are moral by reason of their faith.

Either then slavery as committed by Christians was moral by your standards, or Christians are not morally superior to others by reason of their faith alone.

Quote: Nareed

And I refer you to your oft-repeated assertion that Christians are moral by reason of their faith.

Either then slavery as committed by Christians was moral by your standards, or Christians are not morally superior to others by reason of their faith alone.

How I wish Christians were moral by reason of their faith, alas they are not. You are correct Christians are not morally superior to others by reason of their faith alone. The human condition is something we all struggle with, regardless of our beliefs or lack thereof. Christianity is a great help to live a moral and good life, but if allow pride and selfishness to rule us no matter who we are or what we believe, great harm will be done.

Quote: FrGamble

The human condition is something we all struggle with, regardless of our beliefs or lack thereof.

You sound as though being human were some form of disease.

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Christianity is a great help to live a moral and good life

For that to be come close, you must continually whitewash the many evils committed in the name of Jesus, the church, and even God. The mere fact that this theology can be used to justify atrocities like the crusades, slavery, and others, makes it unfit to be regarded as moral.

You know my views on selfishness. As for pride, that is one of the highest emotions one can aspire to. I would trade an eternity in Heaven, such as it is, for one second of earned pride in an accomplishment. That is something one earns through work, dedication, thought and effort. No god can compare, none can even approach such feeling.

Quote: Nareed

You sound as though being human were some form of disease.

No, human beings are awesome beyond our greatest imagining! It is sin that is the disease, like cancer that infects us.

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For that to be come close, you must continually whitewash the many evils committed in the name of Jesus, the church, and even God. The mere fact that this theology can be used to justify atrocities like the crusades, slavery, and others, makes it unfit to be regarded as moral.

No it means that to avoid the truth of my position you must continually paint with very broad strokes.

I don't know how you can justify your position about Christian theology is false because people who claim to follow it commit atrocities. Is it not clearly written, "Do not kill" or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or "God is Love". It is clearly not the fault of the theology, but the fault of man. When people desire to do their own will and do what is only best for themselves slavery is born, not through Jesus' teachings.

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You know my views on selfishness.

Let me try to summarize them to make sure I do. You value selfishness in that every decision should be made for your own benefit and you should never sacrifice a greater good for a lesser one, which is to you the definition of sacrifice.

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As for pride, that is one of the highest emotions one can aspire to. I would trade an eternity in Heaven, such as it is, for one second of earned pride in an accomplishment. That is something one earns through work, dedication, thought and effort. No god can compare, none can even approach such feeling.

I too am motivated by accomplishment, as I imagine many of us are. God has set it up through your freedom to bless your efforts, dedication, and intelligence with the great feeling that comes from accomplishment, this is a healthy sense of pride. I like how you define it, "earned pride". Then there is the unhealthy sense of pride we might want to call that "unearned pride" that you feel is owed to you and other people better recognize how great you are. This is forsaking the joy of accomplishment for its own sake and only really pursuing the fame, wealth, and power that are often by-products of hard work for their own sake.

Ironically, by saying you would forsake an eternity in Heaven for a second of earned pride you are cheapening the significance of earned pride. Earned pride is something you don't have to forsake Heaven for, it is in Heaven that we our true accomplishments, no matter how small, continue to mean something. If you don't believe in eternity or Heaven the temptation for unearned pride is too great. Without Heaven, even your greatest earned accomplishments mean nothing in the long run. This depressing thought could very easily lead one to soak up the prideful attention and praise as much as possible during our short sojourn here on Earth.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't know how you can justify your position about Christian theology is false because people who claim to follow it commit atrocities.

That's not the reason why I claim it's false. The reason is that there is no such thing as God, Jesus wasn't God, and Jesus didn't perform miracles or had himself resurrected. It's the same reason why Egyptian theology, Greco-Roman theology, Babylonian theology, or in short all theologies, are false.

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Is it not clearly written, "Do not kill"

No, as a matter of fact it's not. Or rather it's not clear.

Murder is immoral, killing may or may not be. For example, killing someone as a result of carelessness is not. Killing someone in self-defense, or in defense of someone else, is moral.

What's the church's position on soldiers and armies? Their purpose is to kill and destroy. Now, I'd say again it depends. In WWII, Allied soldiers were justified in killing Axis soldiers. But Axis soldiers were NOT justified in killing Allied soldiers. The Axis was the aggressor, and there is no moral right to aggression. Allied soldiers were defending their own countries or those of others, there is a moral right to defend one's life and the lives of innocent people.

Of what value was "Thou shalt not kill" to a GI in Europe during WWII?

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or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or "God is Love".

How about "love others as you love yourself"? I suppose you think that's fine. it's not. Why should you love others? Why should you love them a certain way? Love is not unconditional, and it shouldn't be. Even dogs don't love unconditionally (don't confuse submission with love). You will find if you spread love indiscriminately around, you probably have little regard for yourself.

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Let me try to summarize them to make sure I do.

Not even close. Why does any action have to be every action?

Simply put it means the purpose of my life is to pursue my rational values. it doesn't mean I do a very careful accounting of every action in order to decide whether or not it is to my benefit.

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I too am motivated by accomplishment, as I imagine many of us are.

Then there may be hope for you yet.

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God has set it up through your freedom to bless your efforts, dedication, and intelligence with the great feeling that comes from accomplishment,

There is no God to set anything up. It's our nature.

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Then there is the unhealthy sense of pride we might want to call that "unearned pride" that you feel is owed to you and other people better recognize how great you are. This is forsaking the joy of accomplishment for its own sake and only really pursuing the fame, wealth, and power that are often by-products of hard work for their own sake.

That's way to jumbled up to delve into it and straighten it out. There is nothing wrong with pursuing wealth. Fame is a mixed concept. even for you. After all, you stress how famous Jesus got as justification for believing the resurrection myth.

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Ironically, by saying you would forsake an eternity in Heaven for a second of earned pride you are cheapening the significance of earned pride.

Not at all. I'm being rational. Pride is real.

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If you don't believe in eternity or Heaven the temptation for unearned pride is too great. Without Heaven, even your greatest earned accomplishments mean nothing in the long run.

I get it. I'm a terribly bad atheist. I keep dashing your expectations and your prejudices.

Quote: FrGamble

No it means that to avoid the truth of my position you must continually paint with very broad strokes..

I have little idea what the 'truth' of your
position is. You seem to be slipperier
than an eel, which is not usually what
a truth teller is. Your main job seems
to be rewriting the history of the Church
here. No matter what is said by me, it's wrong.

The latest is slavery. I dig something
up that has a pope condoning the
worst kind of slavery, and your response
is 'Find another document like that.'

OK. There's Romanus Pontifex, Latin for
'The Roman Pontiff'. It gives 'permission
for the enslavement' of people found
in Portugal, especially for the rowing
of galley ships.

But we're told not to be too harsh on the
papal court. 'The idea of discovery, and
the conversion and enslavement that
accompanied it, were identified with
hard-held concepts of crusade and
chivalry at that time.' In other words,
everybody else is doing it, why not us.

At least three other popes endorsed and
and carried out these slavery bulls. I'm
taking nothing out of context, as you
claim. Go and read them, it's right there.

Quote: Evenbob

Your main job seems
to be rewriting the history of the Church
here. No matter what is said by me, it's wrong.

It is you who are trying to rewrite history and yes just about everything you say about Church history has been wrong because you are coming at it with such prejudice. I may be doing the same thing in the opposite direction, but at least I am trying to be objective. The bulls you are referring to are all pretty much Dum Diversas, which I tried to explain to you earlier is not about endorsing or permitting slavery. It was written to one nation in their struggle with the Turks and what to do with the prisoners of these conflicts. However, I will concede that the Church was not exactly a shining beacon of light during the period of slavery. It obviously wrestled with it and was condemned at different times by different Popes and then seemingly supported it or looked away as long as everyone was kind to each other at other times. I wonder during the time of slavery how many institutions really struggled with this issue in the way the Church did?

Anyway, you continue to make two big mistakes. First of all, you are looking for a perfect Church or human institution - you will not find one. The Church never claims to be perfect. As I've mentioned before, and by now it should be obvious, human beings are infected by sin.

The other mistake you are making is equating the Church to the Popes. During this period great saints arose like St. Peter Claver (one of my all time favorite saints) or St. Martin de Porres. In 1198 an entire religious order was established called The Trinitarians whose whole effort was to ransom or take the place of slaves. This order still exists today. You see even if the Pope was not following the guidance of the Holy Spirit it was being listened to in other parts of the Church.

Quote: Nareed

That's not the reason why I claim it's false. The reason is that there is no such thing as God,

That is the reason why you are wrong, you have as your foundation a false premise. Since, there is a God you are left with trying to say illogical things that don't follow.

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What's the church's position on soldiers and armies?

Of what value was "Thou shalt not kill" to a GI in Europe during WWII?

Of tremendous value. It meant that while fighting for a just cause soldiers can moral engage in combat that kills the enemy. However, it also meant that the targeting of innocent civilians, torturing the enemy or prisoners, or killing them was immoral. Likewise in self defense sometimes the use of deadly force is required, but the intent is to stop an aggressor or protect others and should not be only to kill. Killing is the unintended but necessary consequence of situations like war and self-defense.

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Love is not unconditional, and it shouldn't be.

If you "love" conditionally it is not love in the sense that Christ speaks of. True unconditional love is not based on what you can do, what you do, it is based on who you are. If we live in the fear of losing love from someone, is that really love? Should we not be able to bear our warts and all to someone and still be assured of their love for us? To do anything else is a façade of love, but not the real deal.

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Simply put it means the purpose of my life is to pursue my rational values. it doesn't mean I do a very careful accounting of every action in order to decide whether or not it is to my benefit.

Okay that sounds fine, we can't over analyze our lives that would paralyze us. I believe rational values based on reason would be universal and therefore would be shared by thinking people. This by the way would not be my definition of selfishness.

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Then there may be hope for you yet.

And based on your desire to be rational, hope for you to.

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There is no God to set anything up. It's our nature.

Our God given nature.

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I get it. I'm a terribly bad atheist. I keep dashing your expectations and your prejudices.

A terribly bad atheist is a good one.

Quote: FrGamble

just about everything you say about Church history has been wrong .

LOL! Of course it is, I'm not quoting from
Church authorized sources. Some things
never change. The Churches reaction to
critics is one of them. At least they can't
kill them anymore, or have them
excommunicated. Heretics have to be
tolerated now..

"Galileo Galilei was brought before the Inquisition for heresy, but abjured his views and was sentenced to house arrest, under which he spent the rest of his life. Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions."

The wascally holy spirit at work again,
those pesky heretics..