Another nutcase

Quote: OnceDear

...Assuming your pension funds are a bit similar to ours, a $500,000 investment pot is about the smallest pot needed to fund a half decent retirement. Your 'Social Security pension, like our UK state pension is not enough to live on beyond absolute subsistance level?

Or do you guys tend to work till you drop?

IRA, Keogh, 401K, 403(b), 503(b) plans, are not pension plans. They are retirement savings accounts.

Social Security is a social insurance plan. Not a pension plan.

Pensions are provided separate from retirement savings accounts.

People with pensions are mostly union and government workers. They retire with retirement saving accounts, social security and a pension. Sometimes two or more.

Otherwise, work till you drop, because inflation will take half your retirement income over a decade.

Quote: odiousgambit

I think she is getting mired into the 'culture wars' way of governing, seeing DeSantis as a guide.

I'd be for the law, myself, except it depends on who gets to be the judge of what is 'harmful'. When it is the people I'd vote for, fine, but when it isn't, maybe say 'trans-phobic' gets to be the definition of 'harmful' ... think of that, Sarah?

Well, Florida is on the cutting edge to the Dark Ages.

Quote:

The Arthur series, penned by US author Marc Brown, tell the stories of a fictional young aardvark Arthur and his family and friends. Of nearly 50 titles in the series – and sales of more than 60million in the US alone – it is Arthur’s Birthday, published in 1989, that has caused consternation.

The Guardian reports that on 12 July, Bruce Friedman, a member of the Florida’s Clay county school district community, filed a challenge to the book being available in classrooms because of the storyline: Arthur receiving a birthday present from Francine the monkey of a glass bottle, with the words “Francine’s Spin the Bottle Game” printed on it.

The Daily Beast has published the whole complaint, with the reason for Friedman’s ban request being “to protect children.”

Friedman states: “It is not appropriate to discuss ‘spin the bottle’ with elementary school children. This book is found in all/almost all [district schools]!”

“‘Spin the bottle’ not okay for K-5 kids,” And for the risk he feared would ensue if the book remained available, Friedman wrote: “Damaged souls.”

According to the Daily Beast, the book is one of 45 titles currently under review for availability in schools.

The Guardian reports that the Florida Freedom to Read Project has responded to Friedman’s challenge to Arthur’s Birthday, saying: “The entire book is about being inclusive of all friends and not only inviting boys or girls (based on your gender) to your birthday party.”

The controversy of book banning has expanded in recent times. Veteran author Judy Blume, whose book Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret has recently been brought to screen on Netflix while another Forever has been pulled from reading lists in Martin County, Florida, told the BBC that “banning books” has become political – “worse than it was in the 1980s.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/children-s-bestselling-book-faces-florida-ban-over-claim-it-damaged-souls/ar-AA1exDlK?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e5865d2244244c9f837afaf7ce648094&ei=12

I guess I started this in the wrong thread. Oh well

glad to see you posting here again, OD

Quote: OnceDear

The chart shows 'Mean' and 'Median' averages.
If That's for Gen-X ers. in age range 40 to 58, then even the white guys and Asians are going to have a bleak retirement. $189k is very little for a pension fund that you may need to start drawing in ten years for maybe 20 years

absolutely bleak

Quote:

Assuming your pension funds are a bit similar to ours, a $500,000 investment pot is about the smallest pot needed to fund a half decent retirement.

pretty much, and will need to be adjusted for inflation if that figure not already in doubt. A person not having enough tends to have less coming in social security too

Quote:

Your 'Social Security pension, like our UK state pension is not enough to live on beyond absolute subsistance level?

yes, not enough

Quote:

Does that chart really say that the MEAN pension fund values of all of those groups is <$200k.

stats from National Institute on Retirement Security. Most organizations trying to get attention try to exaggerate things, evidenced here by the use of $1 and $0, which would mean the median person in the group doesn't even walk around with enough money to buy a cup of coffee. Still, you'd have to figure these are based on something real.

Quote:

Is there some hidden source of income or wealth that we are missing here? E.g. Is the average guy in line for a $1m inheritance? Or already has a $1m home?
Or do you guys tend to work till you drop?

Plenty of people have more 'savings' represented by the equity in their home than in other savings. Selling and downgrading is typical as far as accessing it goes, and that vanishes quickly too, often.

the only back-up is working until you can't. That's easier said than done, as an older person tends to lose quite a bit of value in the workplace. One reason for that is the suspicion you'll quit and collect your retirement, even if you need to work and won't do that ... you get tarred with the same brush. Personally, I can say the type of work I wanted began to vanish, giving me more incentive to retire. Constant change in the workplace is going to get worse it looks like too for these Gen Xers.

Quote: rxwine

Well, Florida is on the cutting edge to the Dark Ages.

Quote:

The Arthur series, penned by US author Marc Brown, tell the stories of a fictional young aardvark Arthur and his family and friends. Of nearly 50 titles in the series – and sales of more than 60million in the US alone – it is Arthur’s Birthday, published in 1989, that has caused consternation.

The Guardian reports that on 12 July, Bruce Friedman, a member of the Florida’s Clay county school district community, filed a challenge to the book being available in classrooms because of the storyline: Arthur receiving a birthday present from Francine the monkey of a glass bottle, with the words “Francine’s Spin the Bottle Game” printed on it.

The Daily Beast has published the whole complaint, with the reason for Friedman’s ban request being “to protect children.”

Friedman states: “It is not appropriate to discuss ‘spin the bottle’ with elementary school children. This book is found in all/almost all [district schools]!”

“‘Spin the bottle’ not okay for K-5 kids,” And for the risk he feared would ensue if the book remained available, Friedman wrote: “Damaged souls.”

According to the Daily Beast, the book is one of 45 titles currently under review for availability in schools.

The Guardian reports that the Florida Freedom to Read Project has responded to Friedman’s challenge to Arthur’s Birthday, saying: “The entire book is about being inclusive of all friends and not only inviting boys or girls (based on your gender) to your birthday party.”

The controversy of book banning has expanded in recent times. Veteran author Judy Blume, whose book Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret has recently been brought to screen on Netflix while another Forever has been pulled from reading lists in Martin County, Florida, told the BBC that “banning books” has become political – “worse than it was in the 1980s.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/children-s-bestselling-book-faces-florida-ban-over-claim-it-damaged-souls/ar-AA1exDlK?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e5865d2244244c9f837afaf7ce648094&ei=12

On the other side, people who recently started checking on exactly what their school boards have been up to have discovered that books containing gay pornography have wound up in school libraries. If it hadn't been for that, this recent movement would have never gotten started I think

me putting that in the wrong thread has muddied things up, sorry

rereading that article, $1 and $0 are the median amounts in a *retirement fund* for those in those groups, so it doesn't say they have no savings at all as I thought

Quote: Tanko

IRA, Keogh, 401K, 403(b), 503(b) plans, are not pension plans. They are retirement savings accounts.

Social Security is a social insurance plan. Not a pension plan.

Pensions are provided separate from retirement savings accounts.

People with pensions are mostly union and government workers. They retire with retirement saving accounts, social security and a pension. Sometimes two or more.

Otherwise, work till you drop, because inflation will take half your retirement income over a decade.

Thanks. My understanding of your system is a bit thin.
We use the term pension for State Pension, paid monthly from age 66, as well as 'Company Pension schemes' and 'Personal Pension Plans' drawn from age 55

In the UK, we all get a State pension of up to about $1,000 per month from age 66, based on having been in ANY paid employment for 45 years and paying an income tax called National insurance. Those of us with less than 45 years worth of contributions can make voluntary top up contributions of about $1,000 for each non qualifying years. Those ineligible for state pension would get SOME income support from the state. National insurance is also paid to fund other state benefits (Social Security), of which there are not many.

I understood that you guys in the US use the phrase Social Security mostly as a reference to your state pension. We use the term mostly for non pension government 'benefits' such as disability benefits, jobseekers allowance, 'income support'

Also in the UK we have three principle types of non-state pension.

Employers Defined Benefit pension (now rare) where we pay in through salary, matched by the employer. These pay a predefined pension amount of typically 50% of final salary from age 60. Rare outside of government employment..

Employers Defined Contribution pension, where we pay into a company savings scheme, but the value upon retirement is not guaranteed. Shares and investments within the scheme can be chosen by the planholder, but they seldom are.
All employers must offer a pension scheme.

SIPP Self Invested Personal Pension : A savings scheme that we can pay into independently of any employment. Can invest in equities or other investments of the planholder;s choosing. Cannot be drawn down before age 55. Restrictions on contribution levels

All those schemes have generous tax breaks. We can have an assortment of one or more of those.

Most adults in the UK have far FAR too little invested in their pension funds. Many expect to survive on State pension, but will be disappointed.
Our state pension scheme is getting eroded because the government realises it's unsustainable. Eligibility age is getting extended to 67 and soon probably 70 or more. Its value is getting eroded viciously.

All our pension savings were recently slaughtered by recent high inflation.
Over in France, there were riots when it was proposed to increase pension age to 64 !!!

in the US the Social Security retirement function distributes based on how much you've paid in. Each person thus has an account. You will get less than you paid in if you had high income while you get more than you paid in if you made less. There is never any way to know what your individual circumstance on that would be [to my knowledge] but I gather that if you frequently reached this limit that stopped you from having to contribute more in a given year [there is such a thing] that this 'sop' thrown to you means you can be sure you got screwed. I only reached that limit once.

It's an extra tax on employers as they have to match what you contribute. Because of this matching, and not reaching the limit, I probably have made out OK as I collect it now. Maybe not, some say if a person was allowed to have taken that money and invested it you'd have done even better due to the return you could have gotten. I don't get worked up too much about that as this would have obvious problems for most people, maybe even for those of us imagining we could have done well investing ... for one thing just how good was I at it for the first 10-20 years? I knew very little about investing in those days.

the system is heading for trouble without making some changes, as I'm sure we all know

Quote: odiousgambit

You will get less than you paid in if you had high income while you get more than you paid in if you made less. There is never any way to know what your individual circumstance on that would be [to my knowledge] but I gather that if you frequently reached this limit that stopped you from having to contribute more in a given year [there is such a thing] that this 'sop' thrown to you means you can be sure you got screwed. I only reached that limit once.

the system is heading for trouble without making some changes, as I'm sure we all know

Hmmmm. Difficult for me to understand

I've deduced that our SIPP is broadly equivalent to your IRA and our company pensions are similar to your 401.

In both countries, defined benefit schemes are the sort of scheme mostly available to government employees, and are being steadily phased out.

But the big difference seems to be in the social security/ state pension element.

In the UK, we pay our National Insurance tax which covers the cost of the state pension. But the NI is an uncapped percentage and the state pension IS a capped £ value. So the poorest paid contribute the least and the highest paid contribute much more than they will ever get back. Until about the 1970s, hardly any working or middle class person had anything but the state pension to look forward to.
Those who have not paid their contributions over 45 years might be eligible to 'Income Support' which is a means tested topup benefit.

State Pension is widely held to be a Ponzi scheme where those paying in today are covering the pensions of the already retired and there will be nothing left when the current working get around to retiring. with our State pension, we can log in to a government website and see exactly what we are set to draw as our future pension. That amount is linked to the CPI inflation rate ( at the moment) Older Government and Military pensions were linked to the higher RPI rate.

Quote: OnceDear

Hmmmm. Difficult for me to understand

I've deduced that our SIPP is broadly equivalent to your IRA and our company pensions are similar to your 401.

In both countries, defined benefit schemes are the sort of scheme mostly available to government employees, and are being steadily phased out.

But the big difference seems to be in the social security/ state pension element.

In the UK, we pay our National Insurance tax which covers the cost of the state pension. But the NI is an uncapped percentage and the state pension IS a capped £ value. So the poorest paid contribute the least and the highest paid contribute much more than they will ever get back.

so that is what is true about our Social Security, except that once you earn about $160,00 in a year [for 2023] you pay no more into it that year [just looked it up]

Quote:

Until about the 1970s, hardly any working or middle class person had anything but the state pension to look forward to.
Those who have not paid their contributions over 45 years might be eligible to 'Income Support' which is a means tested topup benefit.

State Pension is widely held to be a Ponzi scheme where those paying in today are covering the pensions of the already retired and there will be nothing left when the current working get around to retiring. with our State pension, we can log in to a government website and see exactly what we are set to draw as our future pension. That amount is linked to the CPI inflation rate ( at the moment) Older Government and Military pensions were linked to the higher RPI rate.

Any income redistribution scheme has an element of Ponzi to it by definition! However, if the fund is sound, which it could be made to be, then we have to say "not really"

We often hear about how there is only a few workers supporting each retiree, whereas it used to be 20 or so for each in the beginning. Only recently did I realize the development would be by design right from the beginning, having just not thought it through. Not good design!

Quote: odiousgambit

so that is what is true about our Social Security, except that once you earn about $160,00 in a year [for 2023] you pay no more into it that year [just looked it up]
Any income redistribution scheme has an element of Ponzi to it by definition! However, if the fund is sound, which it could be made to be, then we have to say "not really"

We often hear about how there is only a few workers supporting each retiree, whereas it used to be 20 or so for each in the beginning. Only recently did I realize the development would be by design right from the beginning, having just not thought it through. Not good design!

I suspect that a big difference between our social security and yours is the safety net element. Even if one has never paid a penny in tax or National insurance, the government will pay out some sort of means tested 'income support' which is just above abject poverty. We don't have 'food stamps' but there are controlled cash payments which come through social services and can only be spent on food or essentials.

I currently work with a foodbank project. A charity. I see every working day, some of the poorest in our town, living in most basic accomodation with next to nothing. Our system is broken, but aren't they all? There's certainly more poverty around than many of us realise.