Ukraine conflict

Not that it doesn't suck enough by itself, but we were finally on the outside edge of the pandemic, and f___ing Putin starts a war in Europe.

Russia is proposing a cease fire along routes for people leaving The Ukraine. Those routes go into areas controlled by Russia.

I bet that would end well for the refugees…

Quote: RonC

Russia is proposing a cease fire along routes for people leaving The Ukraine. Those routes go into areas controlled by Russia.

I bet that would end well for the refugees…

Their words are meaningless.

They've broken every ceasefire almost as soon as they declared one.

Today they bombed a maternity hospital. That is the fourteenth hospital they've bombed.
'
Western leaders should declare Putin to be a war criminal.

The useless UN should send in troops and planes.

Quote: rxwine

Not that it doesn't suck enough by itself, but we were finally on the outside edge of the pandemic, and f___ing Putin starts a war in Europe.

From my understanding (and I only recently found out about this, I did not follow Russia much during the height of COVID), Putin is super paranoid about COVID, even still, like on another level. That is why when you see him out physically recently at the table with people it looks like there is 40 feet between him and the group because there is (at least that, I believe that is the minimum). This is not (just) a power play to look separate/above its his mandated social distancing, because he does not want other humans near him.

Apparently, he has spend most of the last two years in almost complete isolation even from friends and family, and even people that work near him have to go through an aggressive quarantining procedure (including a chemical spray) first. So, most of his "contact" has been virtual staff calls, so he is completely out of touch.

This surprised me, because I would peg Putin for a COVID denier, but he is the other extreme. And, it also explains why he is likely so out of touch of the world. Think about it, if you are the ruler of a powerful country, and spend two years sitting alone, without your usual friends to even privately check your bad ideas, like, "Hey man maybe don't invade Ukraine because we will be crushed by sanctions", to the point where there are not even opportunities for family and friends to socially push back on his musings, it could be tempting for him to convince himself that he can just start taking Europe (and we all know his staff calls are nothing more than yes-men who feed whatever he has on his mind).

Part of this is because Putin does not want photos of him wearing a mask (and I just checked, I cannot find a single masked photo of him), because he thinks the optics are bad, but is still paranoid about COVID (unlike other anti-maskers), there are pics of him in Hazmat suits out and about though (I guess he thinks that is better than a mask), and he does not trust the vaccine (he is vaccinated allegedly but does not think it will work), so he is trying to avoid all human contact. So, Putin has kind of a strange view of COVID, terrified of it, but anti-mask, and anti-vax (or at least thinks it does not work)..... Its kind of a unique extreme that I do not see elsewhere.

Anyway, I am not saying COVID is responsible for his actions or mindset, but 2 years of self-isolation and paranoia for a man that already had ego-trips and delusions of grandeur is certainly is not helping his mindset (and is maybe lashing out).

One interesting thing about Ukraine, is that despite the massive press on the amount of people volunteering for the military (including from all over the world), and the number of families trying to safely leave, it is illegal for most men to leave the Country.

The President has mandated through martial law that all men age 18-60 remain in the Country to fight or aid forces as needed. The only exception is for fathers of three or more children, and men with a documented disability. Some men are not following this guidance and are fleeing anyway.

The President claims that any man who flees will have their citizenship revoked after the war (I am skeptical if he will keep his promise, heck even America pardoned draft dodgers en-mass in the 1970s....), and that once they leave Ukraine, they should view their leaving as permanent.

But, this large pull of forced service is an interesting dynamic.

An interesting point, is all Nordic counties have mandatory military service on active duty, and some (Finland) require reserve service until the age of 60 for males. So, I guess even if it sounds old by American standards, its pretty understandable for Europe. Russia apparently has mandatory service until age 50 (it claims this "operation" only involves professional soldiers and no conscripts are used, but this is routinely proven wrong). Ukraine has mandatory military service which they were planning to abolish in the next two years, I am guessing this will not happen now...

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-mandatory-military-service

The U.S. still requires selective service registration (in fact, it will likely expand to females in the next four years, making the system even more expansive, which actually has massive support from the left and the right, the last proposal was on the cusp of passing, the closest it has ever been , long before the system ends, -which is unlikely-), but has not actually had forced service since the 1970s.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/12/07/congress-drops-effort-add-women-draft.html

Quote: Gandler

One interesting thing about Ukraine, is that despite the massive press on the amount of people volunteering for the military (including from all over the world), and the number of families trying to safely leave, it is illegal for most men to leave the Country.

The President has mandated through martial law that all men age 18-60 remain in the Country to fight or aid forces as needed. The only exception is for fathers of three or more children, and men with a documented disability. Some men are not following this guidance and are fleeing anyway.

The President claims that any man who flees will have their citizenship revoked after the war (I am skeptical if he will keep his promise, heck even America pardoned draft dodgers en-mass in the 1970s....), and that once they leave Ukraine, they should view their leaving as permanent.

But, this large pull of forced service is an interesting dynamic.

An interesting point, is all Nordic counties have mandatory military service on active duty, and some (Finland) require reserve service until the age of 60 for males. So, I guess even if it sounds old by American standards, its pretty understandable for Europe. Russia apparently has mandatory service until age 50 (it claims this "operation" only involves professional soldiers and no conscripts are used, but this is routinely proven wrong). Ukraine has mandatory military service which they were planning to abolish in the next two years, I am guessing this will not happen now...

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-mandatory-military-service

The U.S. still requires selective service registration (in fact, it will likely expand to females in the next four years, making the system even more expansive, which actually has massive support from the left and the right, the last proposal was on the cusp of passing, the closest it has ever been , long before the system ends, -which is unlikely-), but has not actually had forced service since the 1970s.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/12/07/congress-drops-effort-add-women-draft.html

Personally, I'd rather have one person who wants to be soldiering than two people forced into it. You want someone to be dependable outside of just when his life is also in danger. But sometimes conscription is necessary.

Quote: rxwine

Personally, I'd rather have one person who wants to be soldiering than two people forced into it. You want someone to be dependable outside of just when his life is also in danger. But sometimes conscription is necessary.

There are three trains of thought on this, and to be fair, most (I would even bet the lions share) modern "military experts" (IE Generals/Admirals in the American establishment) agree with you (that we should strive for a "100% volunteer professional force supplemented by experienced reservists, etc....".

However, this is rather short sighted, even for such older men (by military standards). Several major wars of the 1900s would have been unsubstantiated without the draft, namely WWI, Korea, and Vietnam. Some wars such as WWII are the exception where there were literally too many people volunteering to go to the point where people were in large numbers lying about age and medical history to "get in". However, in those (WWI, Korea, Vietnam) three wars, draft-dodging was popular because people did not think that they should have to risk their life for a foreign conflict that had no bearing on them. However, without American presence, things would be bad in all three. Vietnam is usually the one "looked at" as a pointless war where no objective was reached and the fight was a loss from the start, and the one war where draft-dodging is borderline admired (including by both recent Presidents sadly). But, even if this were true, it would not overturn the point that a large pool of people that can be drafted at any time increases the potential of a military.

The third train is not a draft-system, but mandatory National Service for either all or all men (depending on country), which "qualifies" all citizens to be in the military up to a specific age (such as 60) as needed at any time when mandated. And, this is actually more common than most Americans realize. Much of Europe and Asia operates this way. This is why when far-left Americans say "Well Europe gets free college, the only way in America to get free college here is joining the military.....", well yes, but.....

I don't think National Service would ever be viable in America (it would be pushed back by much of the left and the right for different reasons), and 100% volunteer is great on paper, but there is a reason selective service still exists and is enforced. Because, guess what, if America gets invaded (unlikely), we are going to need people to get off their couches and into the trenches in such a rapid growth that hoping for volunteers is not realistic. I think the selective service policy is fair (it will be 100% fair when women get encompassed), its highly unlikely that the pool will ever be used again, but we need a fallback for emergent circumstances.



As for this specific scenario, if my home was being invaded, I would rather die than flee. But, granted I don't have kids, I don't know how that would change my mindset. But, I just can't imagine an able-bodied man fleeing from an invader while others rally to stand and fight. This would be worse than dodging a draft.... In fact this would be worse than dying in my mind.

Quote: Gandler

I just can't imagine an able-bodied man fleeing from an invader while others rally to stand and fight. This would be worse than dodging a draft.... In fact this would be worse than dying in my mind.

You sir are a patriot; there are many like you but patriotism is optional.

There are many men who would not stand and fight, who would rather flee.

For some it is cowardice; for others it is due to a deep felt dislike for the government / culture they are part of.

As an extreme example, consider this scenario: assume that I am a black man wrongly convicted of a crime in Mississippi; after ten years in prison I am released due to the Innocence Project; if the gov't then told me to stand and fight for my country I'd tell the gov't to stick it where the sun doesn't shine and head to Canada, and I'd be fully justified in doing so, no question about it; if my country fails me I can fail my country with a clear conscience.

Patriotism it seems can be a bit of an acquired taste, based on prior experience.

A week ago, I saw an interview with an American living in the Donbas region, who claimed the US was operating seven bio-weapons research labs on the Russian border, in Ukraine. He said they were collecting Russian DNA information. He said the labs no longer existed. Meaning, they were taken out by Russian forces.

Russia and China claim the US has 26 bio-weapons labs in Ukraine.

"Claims that Ukraine currently maintains dangerous biological weapons labs came from Russia as well as China. The Chinese Foreign Ministry this month claimed: "The US has 336 labs in 30 countries under its control, including 26 in Ukraine alone.” The Russian Foreign Ministry asserted that “Russia obtained documents proving that Ukrainian biological laboratories located near Russian borders worked on development of components of biological weapons.”

Yesterday, Senator Rubio asked Under Secretary of State, Victoria Nuland, "Does Ukraine have chemical or biological weapons? Instead of responding with a flat 'no' she responded,

"Ukraine, has biological research facilities which, in fact, we are now quite concerned Russian troops, Russian forces may be seeking to gain control of"

Quote: Tanko

A week ago, I saw an interview with an American living in the Donbas region, who claimed the US was operating seven bio-weapons research labs on the Russian border, in Ukraine. He said they were collecting Russian DNA information. He said the labs no longer existed. Meaning, they were taken out by Russian forces.

Russia and China claim the US has 26 bio-weapons labs in Ukraine.

"Claims that Ukraine currently maintains dangerous biological weapons labs came from Russia as well as China. The Chinese Foreign Ministry this month claimed: "The US has 336 labs in 30 countries under its control, including 26 in Ukraine alone.” The Russian Foreign Ministry asserted that “Russia obtained documents proving that Ukrainian biological laboratories located near Russian borders worked on development of components of biological weapons.”

Yesterday, Senator Rubio asked Under Secretary of State, Victoria Nuland, "Does Ukraine have chemical or biological weapons? Instead of responding with a flat 'no' she responded,

"Ukraine, has biological research facilities which, in fact, we are now quite concerned Russian troops, Russian forces may be seeking to gain control of"

If true, Trump must of known all about them. If the current Under Secretary of State knows about them and is covering it up.