Is Portland over?

Quote: AZDuffman

Because if you do not measure results then what do the results mean? Performance gets measured in most places in life, why are schools and students exempt?

We are talking taking tests, which in school is no big deal. You start taking them in first grade and they never end. The problem seems to be that certain people want everyone to get the same score on the test. Or at least every school average to the same score. But some people do better than others, this is life.

You're measuring the results; you're just not having the test influence whether or not a person graduates.

If you really think about it, the notion of having thirteen (or more) years of school and all of the credits that need to be earned to graduate H.S. just to fail to do so because you whiffed on one test is kind of silly. If that happens, then perhaps a person ends up having to do another year of high school (which adds another year of taxpayer funded cost) or they end up maybe taking and passing the Good Enough Degree (GED) test sooner or later. If they end up passing the GED test, then the standardized test results effectively didn't matter anyway.

Again, it would be one thing if the graduation rate was something like 70%, but graduating high school already doesn't mean anything.

Quote: Mission146

You're measuring the results; you're just not having the test influence whether or not a person graduates.

If you really think about it, the notion of having thirteen (or more) years of school and all of the credits that need to be earned to graduate H.S. just to fail to do so because you whiffed on one test is kind of silly. If that happens, then perhaps a person ends up having to do another year of high school (which adds another year of taxpayer funded cost) or they end up maybe taking and passing the Good Enough Degree (GED) test sooner or later. If they end up passing the GED test, then the standardized test results effectively didn't matter anyway.

Again, it would be one thing if the graduation rate was something like 70%, but graduating high school already doesn't mean anything.

It may have changed since I graduated, but I don't remember any standardized tests in High School (I kind of remember one in 8th grade, but I think that may have been just for HS placement) that they tried to stress us about other than the SAT and ACT, which are actually totally optional (some colleges just look at your scores for admission, but if you don't care about college they are 100% optional, and really you can take them on your own later after graduation if you really want).

There were requirements to graduate, but even these seemed totally arbitrary -I think set by the State- (like four years of gym, four years of English, three years of math, three years of science, and two years of a foreign or classical language, I think were the minimum "hard requirements" as far as minimum classes required for graduation, and anything else was just to fill up your day so you don't have too many study halls, especially senior year, since -unless you failed stuff I guess- you really only have like two 50 min classes that are required to take -Gym and English- so most of the day was fluff). But, I definitely do not remember a standardized test just to graduate.

Quote: Gandler

It may have changed since I graduated, but I don't remember any standardized tests in High School (I kind of remember one in 8th grade, but I think that may have been just for HS placement) that they tried to stress us about other than the SAT and ACT, which are actually totally optional (some colleges just look at your scores for admission, but if you don't care about college they are 100% optional, and really you can take them on your own later after graduation if you really want).

There were requirements to graduate, but even these seemed totally arbitrary -I think set by the State- (like four years of gym, four years of English, three years of math, three years of science, and two years of a foreign or classical language, I think were the minimum "hard requirements" as far as minimum classes required for graduation, and anything else was just to fill up your day so you don't have too many study halls, especially senior year, since -unless you failed stuff I guess- you really only have like two 50 min classes that are required to take -Gym and English- so most of the day was fluff). But, I definitely do not remember a standardized test just to graduate.

You may well not have had one. Individual states can generally set whatever graduation requirements that they wish, as far as credits and testing are concerned.

Those credit requirements sound roughly similar to the ones that I had. I may or may not have went to school in a state that required two years of a foreign language, but as I understand it, some states/districts have no foreign language requirements. Pennsylvania, for example, does not require a foreign language, but I did not go to H.S. in Pennsylvania. In my case, it might have been the second school district itself that required it as opposed to the state because the state doesn't seem to require it now; that said, I graduated H.S. almost twenty years ago.

Anyway, they are pretty arbitrary. For instance, I only required two total credits of either PE or Health; I ended up taking more than that as I like exercise anyway and will take the, "A," average padding.***

I wouldn't exactly call the day fluff (except senior year). I'm going to try to think back to High School in my mind and see if I can roughly remember a semester from each year...

Freshman:

Composition 9
French
Metal Working, Woodworking & Electronics
Physical Education
Geometry
History 9
General Sciences 9
Computers

Sophomore:

Accounting I
Language Arts 10 AP (Different school, so it was called something else)
French II
Physical Education/Health (half and half)
History 10 AP
Coordinated Sciences 10
Business Technology
Algebra II AP

Junior:

Accounting II
Language Arts 11 AP
French III
Public Speaking
World History AP
Marketing
Radio I
Pre-Calculus

Senior: (This is the coast to a diploma and make sure to hold GPA year---all easy classes!)

English 12 AP (Different school again!)
Creative Writing I & Creative Writing II
Civics and Government AP
Business Management
Environmental Science (The EASY one!!! This school required THREE Science credits, the buttheads. I'd never coasted to As in science before!)
Spanish I
Driver's Education
(Volunteer Period in lieu of Study Hall---LD Room)

What sucked was that I would have graduated a semester early, except I needed another half credit in Science. Can you imagine if I would have taken a real Science class, like Chemistry, failed and then had to repeat my Senior Year (carrying a near 4.0 average, mind you) because I need half of a science credit?

MISSION: What's the easiest science class?

VICE-PRINCIPAL: Why? You're a perpetual Principal's List student from (other school), if our AP classes were weighted the same way, your GPA would actually be higher than a 4.0.

MISSION: Yeah, screw that. I suck at Science and I want to get out of here unscathed. What's the closest thing you have to a free A?

VICE-PRINCIPAL: Environmental Science class, but that's mostly going to be kids who are barely even going to graduate. Probably one-quarter of the students in that class are going to repeat their senior years.

MISSION: Awesome, sign me up for that one.

***Looking back, I guess I only did two total credits of PE and/or Health...I'd have thought I did more than that.

I feel that part of the reason the school system is so screwed up is totally counterintuitive. The kids that went through the depression wanted to make sure their kids had a better life. Education was the path they saw and drove their kids, the baby boomers, down that path. The boomers as all parents do continued this pressure on their kids. Business owners of course because they were part of the same cohort started insisting on high school and then college degrees for the jobs. The problem of course was that traditionally the majority of kids never had degrees. As a degree became more and more important to even function in society the schools began dumbing down the requirements for getting a degree to make sure all the kids got one.

I think the way back is for most business' to throw out their education requirements and train and keep those with a work ethic and get rid of those that don't work out. The problem with this is of course the labour laws which makes it so hard to fire people.

I ran my own business' on this model and education was the last thing I looked at on a resume. I trained dozens of apprentices and had a total of about 500 employees over the decades I was in business. The most dangerous time for my electrical apprentices was when they returned from 1st year trade school and thought they knew something. Now we have the bimbos with an arts degree who think they are educated trying to change the world.

Quote: kenarman

I feel that part of the reason the school system is so screwed up is totally counterintuitive. The kids that went through the depression wanted to make sure their kids had a better life. Education was the path they saw and drove their kids, the baby boomers, down that path. The boomers as all parents do continued this pressure on their kids. Business owners of course because they were part of the same cohort started insisting on high school and then college degrees for the jobs. The problem of course was that traditionally the majority of kids never had degrees. As a degree became more and more important to even function in society the schools began dumbing down the requirements for getting a degree to make sure all the kids got one.

I think the way back is for most business' to throw out their education requirements and train and keep those with a work ethic and get rid of those that don't work out. The problem with this is of course the labour laws which makes it so hard to fire people.

I ran my own business' on this model and education was the last thing I looked at on a resume. I trained dozens of apprentices and had a total of about 500 employees over the decades I was in business. The most dangerous time for my electrical apprentices was when they returned from 1st year trade school and thought they knew something. Now we have the bimbos with an arts degree who think they are educated trying to change the world.

I agree with everything that you just said, but I think another problem is that forced 'diversity' in curriculum is simply stupid for some people.

For example, look at Art class: I could tell you, from the age of eight, that I absolutely hate Art, am not good at it and will never be good at it. Despite that fact, art class once a week through Elementary School (Pass/Fail, praise whatever powers that be) and at least one semester of art all three years of Middle School. My goal was just to take my, "C," and get the hell out of those Art classes...except the one year I nearly took my finger completely off with felt scissors and ended up having to go to the hospital.

Anyway, what the hell am I doing in Art? Also, if I hadn't moved and would have been at the High School from which I started, then I would have needed one full Art credit, IN HIGH SCHOOL in order to graduate? What sense does that make? I hate Art and it's just going to hurt my GPA just like it alone kept me from not one, but two, 4.0 semesters in Middle School.

Moving on to High School, why the hell should I have to take Science? I hate Science and am terrible at it. My goal was to get my, "C," and get out of that one mostly unscathed. I think I got B's my Freshman year. The good news is that my AP classes were 5.0's for A's, so that made up for taking a 2.0 in tenth grade science classes.

More than that, I was required to have a science credit in college? What the hell for? I was a Business Administration major at C.C. and then an Economics major at the proper university. In fact, the University almost wouldn't accept my Plant Biology credit from C.C. as they had no equivalent class---which meant I would have needed to take ANOTHER Science class and I told her, "If you make me take another Science class, then I am dropping out TO-DAY, you get that? You either find a way to make Plant Biology count, or I'm out of here."

They should really start steering you towards your strengths around Age 12 with classes that might have some sort of value. We need more Electives and fewer requirements at the level of individual school. The only things that should REALLY be required are two years of Government, (as opposed to History, you can just Google History) four credits of some sort of Language Arts and probably six, or so, math credits.***

***ADDED---Probably something like four computer credits required and move the number of required credits to graduate UP to 28.

Quote: kenarman

I think the way back is for most business' to throw out their education requirements and train and keep those with a work ethic and get rid of those that don't work out. The problem with this is of course the labour laws which makes it so hard to fire people.

Most of the reason the education requirements got where they were is so many degrees out there businesses could require them. Now it is going the other direction. My brother-in-law told me about how his company is now pondering what to do when in a few years there will not be enough people with a degree to choose from.

A second example is my old company. To manage a branch they really, really wanted a degree in my day. Last year or so I saw where they were dropping the degree requirement. Back then they had lots of assistant managers with no degree, and it did show. My guess is they dumbed down the job so it is not as needed now.

Quote: AZDuffman

Most of the reason the education requirements got where they were is so many degrees out there businesses could require them. Now it is going the other direction. My brother-in-law told me about how his company is now pondering what to do when in a few years there will not be enough people with a degree to choose from.

A second example is my old company. To manage a branch they really, really wanted a degree in my day. Last year or so I saw where they were dropping the degree requirement. Back then they had lots of assistant managers with no degree, and it did show. My guess is they dumbed down the job so it is not as needed now.

I think it could be that, or maybe they just decided that a degree doesn't actually prove anything for the position. What would often happen with people who had degrees and would apply for the hotel is that they thought they were entitled to a higher starting wage by virtue of having a degree. Haha. No.

At the hotel, I'd normally hire for the following positions:

Housekeepers
Bartenders
Front Desk

In that order, because I didn't have much turnover for any of these positions. We also didn't have very many positions as I tended to emphasize getting housekeepers who wanted hours and giving them as many hours as I could. There was one housekeeper who was basically there most of the time (meaning, years worked) that I was.

The three things I looked for were attendance, attention to detail and basic competency, in that order for housekeepers and flip the last two for front desk people. Here are the best ways not to get interviewed:

1.) Submit a resume.

---I hate that bullcrap. You're not applying to be a nuclear physicist; you're applying for an entry-level front desk job. If you come in with this flowery resume listing your many achievements such as, "Wrote for the school newspaper," it's going in the trash. Actually, resumes pretty much just automatically went in the trash. Bunch of pretentious clowns.

2.) Misspellings/Incorrect Information.

---If you misspell anything on your application, then it's going in the trash. If you put the wrong address for a previous employer, then you have failed to pay attention to detail and it's going in the trash. If I can use Google, then so can you.

3.) Don't Provide Certain Reasons.

---For example, if a female puts as her reason for leaving her previous employer that she was sexually harassed, I'm sorry if that indeed happened, but I am absolutely not going near hiring you and that application is going in the trash. The other problem was that the hotel's owner did, in fact, sexually harass people on multiple occasions...so I REALLY didn't need that.

4.) (Too Much) Prior Experience.

---Okay, if you have housekeeping experience from four different hotels, and all of them are in the general area, then you're either a really bad employee, suck at housekeeping or just really hate it, but think you don't hate it, for some reason. More than two prior housekeeping and/or front desk jobs = trash.

5.) Follow-Up Call.

---Who decided on these!!?? Yeah, let me make sure I get the spelling of your name right and take a close look at these applications, so I don't accidentally throw the wrong one in the trash.

INTERVIEWS:

I can narrow people interviewing down to three general problems:

1.) A HIGHLY specific reason for needing the job.

---It's usually that someone wants to save up and buy something, so that tells me they're probably just going to leave as soon as they have it.

2.) Schedule Demands.

---It's a hotel, sorry. If you need a specific Saturday off once in a while, then that's something I can do. If you need ALL Saturdays off, then you can have them all off, by not working here.

3.) Other Availability Issues/Distractions

---You can get information out of people without asking the questions that you aren't supposed to ask. I can usually weed out the people who will be spending more time on the phone than working.

Mission, I am very shocked that your hotel had bartenders. I was picturing you working at a much lower rated type of establishment. More along the lines of Motel 6, Econo-lodge, Super 8. I now must assume that you were at a three star hotel along the lines of Best Western and maybe Holiday Inn.

Quote: DRich

Mission, I am very shocked that your hotel had bartenders. I was picturing you working at a much lower rated type of establishment. More along the lines of Motel 6, Econo-lodge, Super 8. I now must assume that you were at a three star hotel along the lines of Best Western and maybe Holiday Inn.

No, I worked at a lower-rated Economy hotel. It was a dump. It just so happened that we had an indoor pool and a bar on the premises. The establishment was nice, at one time and could have been still quite nice if the owner was willing to part with money in any way other than doing the cheapest thing possible.

I wish I could remember enough to find the specific video. A game designer showed how different designs of the same game would make people try and try to get through the next obstacle and a different design would cause them to give up early. But the game was no more difficult in each case. It was just the way the positive and negatives of the achievement were arranged.

One learned the game to get better and get to the end. But you could design it to make people keep attacking it or give up, but no increase in awards or negatives. Just rearranged.

Anyway, it might be useful for teaching a subject.