Rights From Wrongs

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September 30th, 2020 at 9:45:49 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Sorry, I unblocked you.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 2nd, 2020 at 10:22:37 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
My take on the first 2 chapters is,
the author makes the point that
no human rights come from any
god, and he explains why. Of
course he's correct, there is no
god for them to come from.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 2nd, 2020 at 5:11:25 PM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 2019
Quote: Evenbob
My take on the first 2 chapters is,
the author makes the point that
no human rights come from any
god, and he explains why. Of
course he's correct, there is no
god for them to come from.


Indeed - waiting for the padre to weigh in
October 2nd, 2020 at 5:34:09 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
I am excited about this little virtual book club.
So far I like his honesty in admitting he is a moral relativist and the difficulties inherent in that and the whole task that he has undertaken in trying to ground rights not in natural law or positive law. I am intrigued about his idea that rights come from wrongs, I thought it was just a cool title to the book but it is a summary description of his whole theory.

I have just read the introduction so far so I will keep my big challenges to later but I will share my hopes about where I hope he goes and tries to answer. I also really like the fact that he is going to try to apply his theory to different modern moral issues. I also am intrigued by his focus on experience and "nurtural" laws.

Again in a moment of honesty he explains why it is so important to ask the question, "What are the sources of our rights?"
On pg. 5 he says, "it is easy to argue that man made rights must take a backseat to the preferences or perceived needs of the majority in a democracy." He rightly thinks this is a big problem. I imagine we all agree that this is a problem and it might be a good starting point to our discussion. Do you agree with Derschowitz that rights have to come if not from God or natural laws or positive laws - they also can't come from man-made decisions.

I know he goes on to give a good preview of rights coming from near universal rejection of evils, but it might be good to check in about what we all think about the real danger of man-made rights?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 2nd, 2020 at 5:52:04 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
This conversation is going to go nowhere fast if the notion of "real danger of man-made rights" is some kind of pre-condition of their validity.

It's real simple. If you don't believe in god, then by definition those rights came from man. Whether or not you consider that "dangerous" is irrelevant.

I don't have the book, though, and don't plan on getting it, but couldn't help myself (yet again) from throwing the flag on bad logic.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
October 2nd, 2020 at 5:59:17 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
This conversation is going to go nowhere fast if the notion of "real danger of man-made rights" is some kind of pre-condition of their validity.

It's real simple. If you don't believe in god, then by definition those rights came from man. Whether or not you consider that "dangerous" is irrelevant.

I don't have the book, though, and don't plan on getting it, but couldn't help myself (yet again) from throwing the flag on bad logic.


A good summary of the problem he is attempting to address. I too have my doubts on his logic but I am excited about hearing him out.

Dalex do you share the concern that man-made rights are dangerous in that man, our those in power or the majority, can unmake those rights when convenient?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 2nd, 2020 at 8:09:09 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: FrGamble
A good summary of the problem he is attempting to address. I too have my doubts on his logic but I am excited about hearing him out.

Dalex do you share the concern that man-made rights are dangerous in that man, our those in power or the majority, can unmake those rights when convenient?


I don't believe that man-made rights are inherently dangerous.
A majority, or a powerful enough minority, can and does occasionally change those rights.
I am more concerned when a powerful minority is making the rules than a majority.

Do you think it is dangerous when a minority claims certain rights are god-given, and attempts to impose them on the majority?
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
October 2nd, 2020 at 9:41:35 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
do you share the concern that man-made rights are dangerous


There are no other rights than man
made. That's like asking if man
made SUV's are dangerous. As
opposed to what, space alien
made SUV's? It's a trick question,
like 'did you ever stop beating
your wife." It's what's called a
loaded question. If you answer
yes or no you've screwed
yourself. You're admitting
there might be an outside force
making up rights, when it's only
men doing it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 2nd, 2020 at 10:02:06 PM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 2019
Quote: Evenbob
There are no other rights than man
made. That's like asking if man
made SUV's are dangerous. As
opposed to what, space alien
made SUV's? It's a trick question,
like 'did you ever stop beating
your wife." It's what's called a
loaded question. If you answer
yes or no you've screwed
yourself. You're admitting
there might be an outside force
making up rights, when it's only
men doing it.


Yeah it all starts with a supposition - "There is a god" then "God told us what was right and wrong in the 10 commandments" then "All rules/laws/rights stem from that"
October 3rd, 2020 at 5:20:35 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64


Do you think it is dangerous when a minority claims certain rights are god-given, and attempts to impose them on the majority?


Very much so. What I think is needed is something objective and outside of the hands of the whims of the majority or the powerful.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
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