First Principles

Quote: FrGamble

Sounds like you were trying to join a cult. .

You think Xtianity isn't a cult? It was just
the general Xtian rules and guidelines
you see everywhere with the religion.

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What you seem to be saying is you can make it up as you go along

As long as you stay in the guidelines
of society and the law. It's all just
common sense, actually.

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You pay zero attention to the victim of the crime

Most of the attention is on the
victim, that's why there are
laws against burglary, it violates
the victim. The police take a
victims statement, the insurance
company deals with the victim.
The criminal only gets attention
when he's caught, which 90%
of time he isn't.

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pretending there are no moral absolutes

You can't give any examples of
moral absolutism because there
aren't any.

"There are no examples of moral absolutes since morality itself is subjective, relative and contextual.
The truth or falsity of moral judgments, or their justification, is not absolute or universal, but is
relative to the traditions, convictions, or practices of a group of persons."

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It will eventually always lead to suffering for the person committing the acts .

Maybe, but mostly not. Most crimes are
never punished. Other than guilt, which
most crooks deal with early in their
careers, there is no punishment for
most crimes. The majority of drunk
drivers are never caught, only the
habitual ones are. White collar crime,
like embezzling, is gotten away with
95% of the time. As is shoplifting
and most petty theft. Even the big
crime of murder is only punished
50% of the time.

That's why punishment in the afterlife
was invented, it was obvious it wasn't
getting punished much in the here and
now. It's why parole boards put so
much weight into a prisoner being
regretful of his crimes. Because the
majority of those paroled go right
back to crime because they know
crime does pay.

Quote: Evenbob

As long as you stay in the guidelines
of society and the law. It's all just
common sense, actually.

So you just depend on society and the law to provide your morality. Seems pretty simple and easy.

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You can't give any examples of
moral absolutism because there
aren't any.

Do not lie, cheat, steal, rape, murder the innocent, enslave people, torture them, etc. There are lots of examples of moral absolutes. You mention examples of people doing these things or even pointing out that sometimes societies or cultures allowed these things - but that does not and has never made them good.

Quote: FrGamble

So you just depend on society and the law to provide your morality.

Morality has to come from somewhere, we are
not born with it, it does not exist in the
universe outside of us. Most morality consists
of common sense. Treat others as you would
like to be treated is thousands of years old.
Common sense...

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There are lots of examples of moral absolutes.

"While moral absolutism declares a universal set of moral values, in reality, moral principles vary greatly among nations, cultures, and religions.

Quote: Evenbob

Morality has to come from somewhere, we are
not born with it, it does not exist in the
universe outside of us. Most morality consists
of common sense. Treat others as you would
like to be treated is thousands of years old.
Common sense...

I agree it is a universal common sense that every shares and has always had. It spans centuries and cultures and is unchanging. We didn't invite it, it is part of us. Maybe we are just using different words to describe the same thing.

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Moral absolutism
is always dangerous in whatever
form it takes. Just go back 500
years and look at the frightening
power your Church had because
of moral absolutism.

While I agree with you that moral absolutism is dangerous; you only need to look at the present day or go back 100 years to see the unspeakable horrors of relativism and the blood it sheds. When anyone or a government thinks that morality is changeable and not set in stone they will change it to their liking and kill or torture anyone they want. You idea that morality is relative and can change is the source of the greatest death, violence, and destruction the world has ever seen.

Quote: FrGamble

I agree it is a universal common sense

So why pretend it comes from
somewhere outside ourselves.
It's a deduction from observation,
it's common sense that you get
what you give. Treat your neighbor
well and they are likely to treat
you well. Some god has nothing
to do with it.

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the unspeakable horrors of relativism

This only shows that moral absolutism
is a fantasy, it doesn't work. It's an idea,
a concept, and as such can be stepped
around at will. Trying to fool people
into believing there are moral absolutes
in the universe has never worked and
never will work. People are keenly
aware they can do whatever they want
if they can get away with it. They
usually behave because they want
to get along in society, not be a
hinderance to it. Look how fast
good law abiding people turn
into savages during rioting. Looting
the same stores in their neighborhood
they shop in every day.

Quote: Evenbob

So why pretend it comes from
somewhere outside ourselves.
It's a deduction from observation,
it's common sense that you get
what you give. Treat your neighbor
well and they are likely to treat
you well. Some god has nothing
to do with it.

It is universal and comes from observation and some "common sense" that others are as important as me. As the old saying goes, "common sense is not all that common." As you are prone to point out there are lots of people who ignore common sense and morality and look out only for themselves. That is our temptation and tendency. Left to our own devices and if we really could make up the rules we would amend the golden rule to make an exception for ourselves. We all want to say the rules apply to others but in our case there is an exception and we can do what we want. Therefore this "common sense" morality we agree on is more radical and supernatural when we actually live it out than either of us understands.

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This only shows that moral absolutism
is a fantasy, it doesn't work. It's an idea,
a concept, and as such can be stepped
around at will.

How does people breaking the law show that it doesn't work? If anything the results of people trying to pretend there are not moral absolutes make the best argument for their reality and importance. The fact that people ignore moral absolutes is the problem of sin, not a problem with the moral absolutes.

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Trying to fool people
into believing there are moral absolutes
in the universe has never worked and
never will work. People are keenly
aware they can do whatever they want
if they can get away with it. They
usually behave because they want
to get along in society, not be a
hinderance to it. Look how fast
good law abiding people turn
into savages during rioting. Looting
the same stores in their neighborhood
they shop in every day.

Again the only one doing the fooling is anyone who tries to fool people into thinking moral laws are relative and changeable. That is what will never work, in fact it leads to really big problems and the destruction of society.
Your observations about rioting and looting are indeed sad and it is a foretaste of what happens when people abandon the moral absolutes.

Quote: FrGamble

How does people breaking the law show that it doesn't work?

Ignore a natural law and you're
screwed. Like stepping off a
building thinking you're
going to float away. Ignore
a moral absolute and most of
the time nothing at all happens.
Criminals know this, that's how
they know crime pays very well.
Morals are a societal suggestion,
many refuse to follow them.

who tries to fool people into thinking moral laws are relative and changeable. leads to really big problems and the destruction of society.

Quote: Evenbob

Ignore a natural law and you're
screwed. Like stepping off a
building thinking you're
going to float away.

Why do you assume that death is worse than life?

Quote: Evenbob

That just proves how relative and
changeable moral laws are. Most
need to be rigorously enforced
or people would be breaking
them more than they already are.

I don't follow your logic here. How does the fact that moral laws are frequently broken and need to enforced by responsible societies show that they are changeable. Enforcing the law against violence or stealing doesn't change the law. You are speaking into the reality of human weakness but it doesn't have any bearing on the moral laws themselves. Lying, cheating, torture are all still unchangeably wrong even if people, lots of people, do it.

Quote: FrGamble

Enforcing the law against violence or stealing doesn't change the law. You are speaking into the reality of human weakness but it doesn't have any bearing on the moral laws themselves. .

All morals and moral laws
are made up by us, they
can be broken or changed
by us. Look at slavery again.
There was no law against
slavery in Jesus time, to
them it was not only not
wrong, it was a needed part
of society. As time went on
and we advanced socially,
it became wrong.

Now you'll say slavery is
ALWAYS wrong. To which
the response has to be, to
who? There is always a
caveat to every 'moral law'
you name. Stealing is wrong,
unless your family is starving
and it's justified. Then it's
just kinda sorta wrong.

Killing another human is
wrong, we've already attached
14 caveats to that one.

Prisons are full of people who
absolutely believe they committed
no crime. I didn't break in, the door
wasn't locked. I didn't steal that
car, the keys were in it. If that
store doesn't want me to take
their stuff, quit leaving it out
where I can easily get to it.

Did you know that in this country,
up until about the 1920's, things
sold in dept stores and even
corner markets, was kept out
of reach of the customers? Clerks
would let you examine something
while they watched. A grocery
store would take your order while
a clerk filled it.

They knew people are thieves, even
good church going people. Given
the opportunity they will give in
to temptation. Human nature
is not to be fair and just, it's
to be greedy and deceitful. This
is where your Church comes in,
make people behave. Because
the universe has no moral 'laws',
we make them up as we go along.