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First Principles
| January 6th, 2021 at 11:23:53 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
This is not at all the Jewish beliefs. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 6th, 2021 at 1:09:25 PM permalink | |
| Mission146 Administrator Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 23 Posts: 4147 |
It does affect your choices because it creates nothing more than the illusion of choice where none exists. "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman |
| January 6th, 2021 at 2:24:55 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Can you exlpain this a bit more? If I somehow knew you were going to write what you did how would that have made your choice to do so an illusion or eliminate your choice? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 6th, 2021 at 2:26:38 PM permalink | |
| Mission146 Administrator Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 23 Posts: 4147 |
It wouldn't, because you didn't create me. "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman |
| January 6th, 2021 at 4:22:24 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Okay good point. If I did create you how would it effect your freedom in writing what you did? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 6th, 2021 at 5:42:16 PM permalink | |
| Mission146 Administrator Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 23 Posts: 4147 |
You can claim that there is a choice to be made if you want to, and call it, "Free will," but there's no ACTUAL choice in the scenario. It's not just the omniscience that's the problem, but rather, it's that combined with the omnipotence. Not only did God know I was going to do it before I did it; he knew I was going to do it before he had even created me in the first place. So, there's some degree of perspectivism at play. From the perspective of the individual, sure, they have free will. They operate under the assumption that they are making a choice to do or not do something and that there is an actual choice to make. However, on the cosmic level, that's not at all true. The person has always done this thing; the person could not do anything else because God knew the person would do it and went ahead and created them anyway. If the person fails, then it was failure by design. They could have been fixed before leaving the plant. Of course, nothing on this Earth is necessary in the first place and, if God does exist, we're glorified fish in a bowl. And, less than that, actually. I've always made sure to feed ALL of my fish. "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman |
| January 6th, 2021 at 6:54:27 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 148 Posts: 25978 |
"The Jewish tradition contains a variety of opinions on the subjects of heaven and hell. And modern Jewish thinkers have generally shied away from the topic." Jews have no clear concept of punishment or reward after death. So they work hard to be successful in this life and consider their achievements to be gods blessing on them. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| January 7th, 2021 at 1:06:33 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Again there is a choice even if God who exists outside of time knows all things. There is no present, past, or future to God. There is for us and therefore there is real freedom and actual choice. God's knowledge does not effect you or force you to do anything. You bring in omnipotence as well and I still don't see how God's omnipotence effects you. He is not going to ever force you to do anything. Yes He created you because He loves you and made you in His image and likeness. This includes giving you the ability to make free choices, even to reject Him and to hurt others. You wouldn't want Him to take that away would you?
From God's unique perspective you are correct He lives outside of time and matter. You seem to feel upset that somehow God's omniscience allows Him to know what we have or will do, even though we ourselves do not have that perspective and from our perspective in time we are truly making an actual choice. Yes God knows what that choice is or will be, but that is part of the nature of God. Would you be more comfortable with a god like being that is not all knowing? What difference would that make to you from your perspective?
It was not failure by design, it was failure by our choice. We were created perfect but we rebelled and rejected God. We still do this in obvious ways every day and cause ourselves and others and the world suffering. Again you seem to really want God to have created living robots who are programmed to do exactly as God commands. The problem with that is then we are not free to truly love. To love requires the freedom to chose to hate. When we chose to reject God and His ways that we exalt ourselves, don't share resources equally with others, hurt each other, etc., etc. I will say that the Good News is that God offers us a way to return to perfection and exactly what you are looking and longing for (and we are all asking the same questions and longing for a perfect life like you are). It is through the perfection of Jesus Christ and His offer to forgive us and help us live good lives in this broken world with the promise of a perfect Heaven to come. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 7th, 2021 at 1:35:08 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 148 Posts: 25978 |
You realize nobody can explain what this means. They've been arguing over it for thousands of years. Because nobody has a clue, every religion has it's own explanation. And each one is more convoluted than the last one.
So god, who sits outside of time, created us in his own image, for what reason? If he created us in his own image and likeness, he created a bunch of 'mini' him's just to see what would happen? It makes zero sense. There is no rhyme or reason or purpose to it. You're basically saying god created an ant farm because he was bored just to see if something he created would be grateful and worship him. What an egomaniac your god is. The only reason we exist, in gods likeness and image no less. is too obey and worship him and if we don't, we're screwed? And this makes some kind of logical sense to god believers. Because in the real world where I live, it's laughably ridiculous. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| January 7th, 2021 at 1:58:02 PM permalink | |
| Mission146 Administrator Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 23 Posts: 4147 |
That's right. That's why I said, when we get into God's perspective, I've always done it. I could do nothing but that thing. It's a fixed event, from his view, just as all events are fixed events. That's the illusion of choice. For you to be right, we perceive ourselves as having choice where none exists.
I don't see why you wouldn't create a perfect world. I mean, I do...original sin...but he also knew that Eve would eat the apple, didn't he? It's really pretty simple: If you accept everything as true, then we were fairly screwed from the words, "Let there be light."
I'm not sure how, but by some means we don't arrive at the same conclusion that he created us to do it. If a person rejects God, then God already knew that person would do that. Created that person anyway. Condemns the person to hell for doing what God knew he was going to do before the person entered the mortal coil. Again, from God's perspective, it has always happened and nothing else could be the case. On the other hand, he could just not create you since he already knows what the result will be. Where you see choice, I see wind-up dolls executing a pre-programmed series of moves. If you had a non-omniscient God, then free will could simultaneously exist. That would be a matter of God setting up certain initial boundary conditions for a person and then everything after is somewhat random.
Failure by design. God knew that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit, created them anyway. That's tantamount to programming them to do it. When it comes to living robots, there's no functional difference if everything is (from our perspective) predetermined anyway.
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