The Gay Thread

Quote: ams288

The + in LGBTQ+ usually includes an A for “ally,” which just means that they are an ally of queer people and not a dumb bigot.

38% seems low!

I don't care what people do, but I wouldn't describe myself as an, 'Ally,' exactly. It's not a community I'd want to identify with as they are almost as bad of a cult as the Christians are...especially when it comes to ideological purity.

Quote: Mission146

Your religion has failed. Drink it in, buddy. Savor it. Total collapse of Christianity within a century. Goodbye and good riddance.

Bold prediction but not sure what it has to do with the post.

Quote: AZDuffman

Bold prediction but not sure what it has to do with the post.

Because the religion has made strict demands on morality and sexual identification for Millenia. It's not that homosexuality has been heavily promoted...at least not until very recently...it's that open homosexuality and bisexuality are viable social options that someone so situated can be open about.

Quite simply, it can't work one way without working in reverse. The Christians have promoted heterosexuality since the dawn of this country. It was the social standard. Many simply could not tolerate anything short of strict conformity, and while the numbers of people like that have dwindled, many still exist.

It's also the whole, "We tried to give them an inch and they took a mile," argument that you like.

You and the religion have never given those people anything. Not once. All you do is attempt to forbid and take away. They have tried to restrict abortion where they can and the faith stood in the way of gay marriage being the law of the land for decades.

Now, they have the audacity to act shocked that many of these people so situated are still giving them blowback and trying to take more. It's NOT because the faith has ever given them anything; it hasn't; it's because they've had to take everything that they have now.

Religious intolerance and restrictions have largely failed. Soon, the religion itself will fail.

If the religion had ever been willing to simply ignore the doings of people who do not agree with, then things wouldn't be quite as extreme as they are now. Essentially, the current state of affairs is the fault of both parties, but really the blame starts with social conservatives.

Also, that TV was straight characters the vast majority of the time, and yet, not everyone ends up straight. A counterpoint that you will conveniently ignore, naturally.

Quote: Mission146

Because the religion has made strict demands on morality and sexual identification for Millenia. It's not that homosexuality has been heavily promoted...at least not until very recently...it's that open homosexuality and bisexuality are viable social options that someone so situated can be open about.

Quite simply, it can't work one way without working in reverse. The Christians have promoted heterosexuality since the dawn of this country. It was the social standard. Many simply could not tolerate anything short of strict conformity, and while the numbers of people like that have dwindled, many still exist.

It's also the whole, "We tried to give them an inch and they took a mile," argument that you like.

You and the religion have never given those people anything. Not once. All you do is attempt to forbid and take away. They have tried to restrict abortion where they can and the faith stood in the way of gay marriage being the law of the land for decades.

"Never given them anything?" What is to "give." The standard is set, if they do not like it they do not have to be a member. What else should be "given?" Allow murder so members of the mafia are not offended?

We are at a crossroads in the USA. The homophile movement is intent on turning society into Sodom and Gomorrah. Not everyone will be down with this. They so far seem to have sexually confused about a third of the post-millennial generation. But these things swing. Eventually we will get a generation that gets disgusted with the kind of society currently being transformed.

Quote:

Now, they have the audacity to act shocked that many of these people so situated are still giving them blowback and trying to take more. It's NOT because the faith has ever given them anything; it hasn't; it's because they've had to take everything that they have now.

Religious intolerance and restrictions have largely failed. Soon, the religion itself will fail.

Unlikely after 2000 years. I do not get all the hate on Christians. Christianity is the basis for modern, enlightened society. What is going to happen is religion is going to more and more decentralize. The Catholic Church ignoring the gay priests abusing youth has turned many people on them. But at the same time the USA is taking on lots and lots of Central Americans, who are almost all Catholic. Thus the jury is still out there. Meanwhile, religious people are gravitating to various Protestant offshoot churches. Some smaller with a sense of community. Others are "megachurches" which have charismatic speakers and chock full of social networking, which is kind of what churches were way back.

Quote:

If the religion had ever been willing to simply ignore the doings of people who do not agree with, then things wouldn't be quite as extreme as they are now. Essentially, the current state of affairs is the fault of both parties, but really the blame starts with social conservatives.

Also, that TV was straight characters the vast majority of the time, and yet, not everyone ends up straight. A counterpoint that you will conveniently ignore, naturally.

If gays would ignore people who are not down with their choices then things would not be as they are now, either. Religion basically has ignored gays. Homosexuality is promoted as wrong, but nobody was forcing gays to show up at church. As TV being "straight characters the majority of the time" well, duh. 98% of the population is straight, why would TV not be the same? And it was playing to the market. I see a show with gay storylines I basically tune it out as I do not want to watch. I am not alone there.

Quote: AZDuffman

"Never given them anything?" What is to "give." The standard is set, if they do not like it they do not have to be a member. What else should be "given?" Allow murder so members of the mafia are not offended?

We are at a crossroads in the USA. The homophile movement is intent on turning society into Sodom and Gomorrah. Not everyone will be down with this. They so far seem to have sexually confused about a third of the post-millennial generation. But these things swing. Eventually we will get a generation that gets disgusted with the kind of society currently being transformed.



Unlikely after 2000 years. I do not get all the hate on Christians. Christianity is the basis for modern, enlightened society. What is going to happen is religion is going to more and more decentralize. The Catholic Church ignoring the gay priests abusing youth has turned many people on them. But at the same time the USA is taking on lots and lots of Central Americans, who are almost all Catholic. Thus the jury is still out there. Meanwhile, religious people are gravitating to various Protestant offshoot churches. Some smaller with a sense of community. Others are "megachurches" which have charismatic speakers and chock full of social networking, which is kind of what churches were way back.



If gays would ignore people who are not down with their choices then things would not be as they are now, either. Religion basically has ignored gays. Homosexuality is promoted as wrong, but nobody was forcing gays to show up at church. As TV being "straight characters the majority of the time" well, duh. 98% of the population is straight, why would TV not be the same? And it was playing to the market. I see a show with gay storylines I basically tune it out as I do not want to watch. I am not alone there.

Emphasis mine.

it is hard to ignore people who use laws to prosecute you and disrupt your life. America has great gay rights now, but this was a result of decades of fighting. And, the Church opposed changes every step of the way (and Mormons also lobby hard against it, in some ways they are more devious because they do some sneaky financial stuff to oppose gay rights). It was only recently that gay marriage was made legal (2015). And it was only more recently that gay discrimination was banned (2020). And it was relatively recently (2011) that gays were banned from the military. These are not ancient wrongs, these are all very recent events, where true equality has only very recently been acquired. Like it has been literally less than a decade from true equality.

And, this is just America, there are some countries where being gay is still a crime (just being gay not even acting upon it), some with the death penalty.

In every country these laws are propped up by religion. In America that religion happens to be Christianity largely (and Mormonism in the background). Islamic countries have the same crazies trying to use the government for social values.

No gay person wants to ban churches or influence them. All progressives want is religion stopping it's influence on the government. America was founded as a secular country with a wall between church and state, it has actually degraded since on this aspect (most areas there have been improvement since founding.)

Quote: Gandler

it is hard to ignore people who use laws to prosecute you and disrupt your life. America has great gay rights now, but this was a result of decades of fighting. And, the Church opposed changes every step of the way (and Mormons also lobby hard against it, in some ways they are more devious because they do some sneaky financial stuff to oppose gay rights). It was only recently that gay marriage was made legal (2015). And it was only more recently that gay discrimination was banned (2020). And it was relatively recently (2011) that gays were banned from the military. These are not ancient wrongs, these are all very recent events, where true equality has only very recently been acquired. Like it has been literally less than a decade from true equality.

And, this is just America, there are some countries where being gay is still a crime (just being gay not even acting upon it), some with the death penalty.

In every country these laws are propped up by religion. In America that religion happens to be Christianity largely (and Mormonism in the background). Islamic countries have the same crazies trying to use the government for social values.

No gay person wants to ban churches or influence them. All progressives want is religion stopping it's influence on the government. America was founded as a secular country with a wall between church and state, it has actually degraded since on this aspect (most areas there have been improvement since founding.)

Great post!

Quote: Gandler

Quote: AZDuffman

"Never given them anything?" What is to "give." The standard is set, if they do not like it they do not have to be a member. What else should be "given?" Allow murder so members of the mafia are not offended?

We are at a crossroads in the USA. The homophile movement is intent on turning society into Sodom and Gomorrah. Not everyone will be down with this. They so far seem to have sexually confused about a third of the post-millennial generation. But these things swing. Eventually we will get a generation that gets disgusted with the kind of society currently being transformed.



Unlikely after 2000 years. I do not get all the hate on Christians. Christianity is the basis for modern, enlightened society. What is going to happen is religion is going to more and more decentralize. The Catholic Church ignoring the gay priests abusing youth has turned many people on them. But at the same time the USA is taking on lots and lots of Central Americans, who are almost all Catholic. Thus the jury is still out there. Meanwhile, religious people are gravitating to various Protestant offshoot churches. Some smaller with a sense of community. Others are "megachurches" which have charismatic speakers and chock full of social networking, which is kind of what churches were way back.



If gays would ignore people who are not down with their choices then things would not be as they are now, either. Religion basically has ignored gays. Homosexuality is promoted as wrong, but nobody was forcing gays to show up at church. As TV being "straight characters the majority of the time" well, duh. 98% of the population is straight, why would TV not be the same? And it was playing to the market. I see a show with gay storylines I basically tune it out as I do not want to watch. I am not alone there.

Emphasis mine.

it is hard to ignore people who use laws to prosecute you and disrupt your life. America has great gay rights now, but this was a result of decades of fighting. And, the Church opposed changes every step of the way (and Mormons also lobby hard against it, in some ways they are more devious because they do some sneaky financial stuff to oppose gay rights). It was only recently that gay marriage was made legal (2015). And it was only more recently that gay discrimination was banned (2020). And it was relatively recently (2011) that gays were banned from the military. These are not ancient wrongs, these are all very recent events, where true equality has only very recently been acquired. Like it has been literally less than a decade from true equality.

And, this is just America, there are some countries where being gay is still a crime (just being gay not even acting upon it), some with the death penalty.

In every country these laws are propped up by religion. In America that religion happens to be Christianity largely (and Mormonism in the background). Islamic countries have the same crazies trying to use the government for social values.

No gay person wants to ban churches or influence them. All progressives want is religion stopping it's influence on the government. America was founded as a secular country with a wall between church and state, it has actually degraded since on this aspect (most areas there have been improvement since founding.)

For the one hundredth time, America was a secular GOVERNMENT. It was always a Christian majority country. As to your other claims, military service is not a right, and there was always many disqualifications from it. Since gays have been allowed, recruitment has fallen. Gays were always allowed to marry, but they demanded the definition of marriage be changed for their lifestyle choices.

I have not seen "religion" being what made the laws despite your bigoted statements about it. The laws were and are about people who have a belief in how things should be. Religion has very little to do with it.

I'll tell you what, though. We can ask religion to "stop its influence" when gays agree to quit using their influence. Agree? Sounds like a fascist state if we were to do that, but I suspect you would prefer that.

Quote: AZDuffman

"Never given them anything?" What is to "give." The standard is set, if they do not like it they do not have to be a member. What else should be "given?" Allow murder so members of the mafia are not offended?

We are at a crossroads in the USA. The homophile movement is intent on turning society into Sodom and Gomorrah. Not everyone will be down with this. They so far seem to have sexually confused about a third of the post-millennial generation. But these things swing. Eventually we will get a generation that gets disgusted with the kind of society currently being transformed.

I could probably find you saying, "You gave them an inch and they took a mile," or similar. The church never gave them anything, per Gandler's post. The various religions fought them every step of the way; the religions lost. It is only now that they go around complaining about how things are getting pushed too far, but it might not be that way had religious people not so vehemently opposed and condemned decisions that were not their own in the first place.

Your second paragraph above might be correct, but it's going to be secular, in nature, when that happens. Religion, other than perhaps Catholicism, is dying. Just look at the numbers. Honestly, they did it to themselves and my only regret is that I won't live to see Christianity's total failure.

When I say, "Failure in 100 years," I mean meaningful social influence. I think Catholicism will remain alive and somewhat well for centuries to come just because it has ridiculous numbers to play with. Also, Catholics tend to be largely tolerant of what non-Catholics are doing.

In terms of the Evangelical branches, Protestant, etc...their influence will wain substantially and, while they will continue to exist (to some extent) even after a century, they will exert no social or political influence on this country whatsoever as they will lack sufficient numbers to do so.

Other than unto themselves, these denominations of Christianity will effectively be gone in the sense that they will no longer matter. They'll exert barely more influence, socially and politically, than Buddhism does.

Compared to where Christianity was before, I would describe that as complete and utter failure. Again, they did it to themselves.

Quote:

Unlikely after 2000 years. I do not get all the hate on Christians. Christianity is the basis for modern, enlightened society. What is going to happen is religion is going to more and more decentralize. The Catholic Church ignoring the gay priests abusing youth has turned many people on them. But at the same time the USA is taking on lots and lots of Central Americans, who are almost all Catholic. Thus the jury is still out there. Meanwhile, religious people are gravitating to various Protestant offshoot churches. Some smaller with a sense of community. Others are "megachurches" which have charismatic speakers and chock full of social networking, which is kind of what churches were way back.

What is it Christians like to say, "I don't hate them; I hate what they do." There you go. Christians can order themselves however they may wish and have whatever personal moral sets, and standards for each other, that they want to. All of that is really none of my concern.

I actually support religious freedom even to the extent that I think Christians can refuse certain services to individuals, if they wish. I don't understand why the individuals being refused service would even want said services or to spend money with these people, but rather than file lawsuits, much better just to call them out on social media, and within the community, for boycotts.

Eventually, intolerance will simply not be tolerated to a large enough extent that to refuse someone service on a basis like that will be to effectively put oneself out of business.

The Catholics are mostly tolerant of what non-Catholics are doing these days. The Pope has even directed this.

There is a movement towards Protestant churches for the time being, I grant that, and the more liberal Methodist Church is having something of a split right now.

The majority of denominations are losing numbers and, Catholics aside, religion is losing numbers on the whole. I think the Baptists are gaining, but they are the only ones...and the people they are gaining seem to be those dissatisfied with more liberal-leaning, or I might say fundamentally tolerant, churches.

So, the Evangelical Conservatives will consolidate, but it is their last stand. The failure that I have described above is imminent and it will be glorious.

Quote:

If gays would ignore people who are not down with their choices then things would not be as they are now, either. Religion basically has ignored gays. Homosexuality is promoted as wrong, but nobody was forcing gays to show up at church. As TV being "straight characters the majority of the time" well, duh. 98% of the population is straight, why would TV not be the same? And it was playing to the market. I see a show with gay storylines I basically tune it out as I do not want to watch. I am not alone there.

I don't really care about the first sentence because you're suggesting that they should be doing what the Christians should have done all along, but refused to do.

Religion has absolutely not ignored gays. You fought tooth and nail against gay marriage, for decades, despite the fact that marriage, in that sense, is a Governmental institution. Despite the claims religions made to the contrary, at that time, no church can be forced to hold wedding services for a gay couple and there was never a chance of them being forced to do so.

The Christians claimed that the very notion of gay marriage existing in this country was an affront to their faith. Of course, even if that were true, not everyone in this country is of the faith. Hell, there are even a few denominations now who are actually willing to marry a gay couple.

The point, which as I predicted, you would conveniently ignore, is that media, evidently, did not influence people to be straight. If TV shows and movies, which depicted 98% straight people (according to you) were insufficient to compel everyone to be straight, then I must conclude that media of these varieties has very little impact, if any, on whether or not people are gay.

Perhaps two wrongs don't make a right, but if the gay community...holding the advantage...wants to combat intolerance of them with intolerance of religion, then I honestly find it difficult to blame them.

Mark my words---insignificant cult inside of a century. No social or political power whatsoever. Compared to what they were before-absolute failure.

And, they'll have done it to themselves...which is just so wonderful.

Quote: AZDuffman

For the one hundredth time, America was a secular GOVERNMENT. It was always a Christian majority country. As to your other claims, military service is not a right, and there was always many disqualifications from it. Since gays have been allowed, recruitment has fallen. Gays were always allowed to marry, but they demanded the definition of marriage be changed for their lifestyle choices.

I have not seen "religion" being what made the laws despite your bigoted statements about it. The laws were and are about people who have a belief in how things should be. Religion has very little to do with it.

I'll tell you what, though. We can ask religion to "stop its influence" when gays agree to quit using their influence. Agree? Sounds like a fascist state if we were to do that, but I suspect you would prefer that.

I can always count on you to make some of the stupidest arguments I have ever seen.

Honestly, if I didn't know better, I would think that you were some sort of Conservative infiltrator with a goal of making people not be able to stand conservatives.

Explain to me why military service should be disqualified on the basis of sexuality. If nothing else, I'd think you would be in favor of homosexuals being potentially shot dead, or exploded, by legal and Government-sanctioned means.

Recruitment has probably fallen because we are not in a war, per se. The last time that we were in a, 'War,' we'd see people enlisting to serve their country, but what many of them ended up serving was Bush's vendetta against Saddam Hussein in an invasion of Iraq predicated entirely on lies. That aside, Bush wasn't a terrible POTUS; he handled 9/11's direct aftermath extremely well.

Yeah, gays were allowed to marry. That's your position? As long as you marry someone to whom you are not sexually attracted, then you are allowed to marry. Brilliant point.

Even then, the religious definition of marriage can be whatever it wants to be. In a religious sense, churches do not have to recognize gay couples as married. Actually, The Catholic Church can refuse to recognize straight couples as married, and expel them from the church, if it wants to. I think that is fairly rare, but I've heard of it happening.

How many times have we had this conversation? The Governmental institution of marriage and the religious one are simply two different institutions.

To your second paragraph, I'm just going to accept the implication that you don't understand cause and effect and save myself the time.

Mission your unbridled hate for Christians reminds me of TP and his often hateful posts about anything he doesn't agree with. You lump all Christians into one basket but they are a far from a homogeneous group. Many Christians and their churches have very progressive views. Christian churches startied allowing openly gay ministers in 1972 and possibly earlier.