Father following a track log from a plane

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May 22nd, 2018 at 8:29:50 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Here's a good example of a plane's history which passengers might want to know. It seems that after only 4 days of operations for Cubana this ancient B737 crashed presumably killing everyone on board.

Aug , 1979 Piedmont Airlines
Aug , 1989 USAir
Sep , 2000 Royal Airlines - Canada
May , 2001 Canada 3000 Airlines (Canadian airline ceased operations 08. Nov 2001)
Oct , 2001 US Navy
Mar , 2005 Magnicharters - Mexico
Aug , 2007 NACAM - National Airways - Cameroon
Feb , 2008 Avolar - Mexico
Aug , 2009 Aero Caribbean - Cuba
Jul , 2010 Global Air - Mexico
Jul , 2012 Línea Aérea SINAMI - Chile
Jan , 2013 Global Air - Mexico
Oct , 2014 EasySky Airlines - Honduras
May , 2018 Global Air - Mexico

Global air wet leased to Cubana starting 14. May 2018. It crashed on 18. May 2018 at Havana Airport shortly after take-off carrying 105 passengers and 6 crew.
May 22nd, 2018 at 9:50:11 AM permalink
SOOPOO
Member since: Feb 19, 2014
Threads: 22
Posts: 4157
Quote: Pacomartin
Here's a good example of a plane's history which passengers might want to know.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have absolutely no way to ascertain that information when booking a flight. I just booked a Southwest flight to Fort Lauderdale for October. I know what type of plane it is but no way can I tell what plane they will be using. I doubt they know now. I don't think you can tell about the pilot's history as well. Am I correct there too?
May 22nd, 2018 at 11:50:39 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
If you know the identity of the pilot you can check out his certificate and designations. Certain portions of his record are in databases but most of the errors that pilots make are "self reported" and there is often a cloaking moratorium in effect to induce the prompt reporting of such incidents. Remember with so few crashes getting data to study is hard, so the NTSB/FAA types want to study "near misses" and self reporting of a near miss in a prompt manner enhances safety by providing more data to be studied.

Last minute substitutions of personnel and equipment is utterly unpredictable and uncheckable. Remember the First Officer needs to keep sharp and gain experience so you don't know who is doing take offs and landings versus who is doing the radio frequencies and dialing in the NavAids and check list callouts.
May 22nd, 2018 at 1:31:54 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: SOOPOO
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have absolutely no way to ascertain that information when booking a flight.


No there is no way. I think flightradar24 will give you the planned flight four days in advance. Presumably most of the planes you fly will be much safer than these wet leases to Cuba where the plane has been in half a dozen different countries.

You may want to try and get on the bigger Southwest planes (B737-800) which have 175 seats. The oldest plane there is 6.2 years old. There is no easy way to know if any were bought second hand, but it's a lot less likely. The B737-700 with 143 seats are on average a decade older and can be as old as 20 years. I don't think they switch the size of the planes at the drop of a hat.

The oldest plane in Southwest inventory was delivered on 1998-10-01.

The three planes that had serious problems were from the oldest planes, including the only B737-700 Southwest has ever written off (unless they write off the latest one)

July 2013 written off crash at LGA 1999-10-01
27 Aug 2016, uncontained engine failure (returned to active service) 2000-05-01
17 Apr 2018 uncontained engine failure (in storage during investigation) 2000-07-01

If they do return the plane to active service do you think that someone should know they have the exact seat where the woman was sucked out of the window?

I know that people swear on a stack of bibles that age doesn't matter, but it doesn't feel that way.
May 22nd, 2018 at 2:08:17 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Quote: Pacomartin
I know that people swear on a stack of bibles that age doesn't matter, but it doesn't feel that way.
One member of the FAA's "Go Team" happens to be a private pilot and flies his own fifty-four year old plane for recreation.

Sucked out the window? Are you worried that a bit of runway debris will be stirred up and strike the same window in the exact same manner and that rivets will fail in the exact same manner because rivets have good memories?
May 22nd, 2018 at 2:08:45 PM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
Threads: 6
Posts: 1600
I would disagree with those who.say age doesn't matter.

Age of airframe matters.

Number of pressurization cycles matter.

Environmental factors for home and usual flight schedule matters, particularly a lot of time near sea air/ports, or a lot of exposure to deicing chemicals.

Fwiw, I'm not talking about flight over oceans, I'm talking about a lot of landings/departures/maintenance bases near salt water.

All of those things degrade structural metal and other parts at the molecular level.
Never doubt a small group of concerned citizens can change the world; it's the only thing ever has
May 22nd, 2018 at 2:24:01 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: beachbumbabs
I would disagree with those who.say age doesn't matter.


I don't know if you can object to being assigned to a particular aircraft because you don't like it's history. For instance consider:

N707SA Line #1 Southwest delivery 1998-10-01 as launch customer for B737-700

N7830A Line #203 Was operated by four Danish airlines (three of which went bankrupt, and the fourth downsized from 23 jets to 5) . Acquired by Southwest at the age of 16 year, 9 months. Only 20 weeks newer than line #1. Oldest airframe in southwest fleet that bought second hand.

Danish Airlines: Maersk Air, Sterling Airlines, Cimber Sterling, Jettime

Now objecting to the first one probably means you are cranky. But you may not want to fly in airframes that have been passed around.
May 22nd, 2018 at 2:25:30 PM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4470
Quote: beachbumbabs
I would disagree with those who.say age doesn't matter.

Age of airframe matters.

Number of pressurization cycles matter.

Environmental factors for home and usual flight schedule matters, particularly a lot of time near sea air/ports, or a lot of exposure to deicing chemicals.

Fwiw, I'm not talking about flight over oceans, I'm talking about a lot of landings/departures/maintenance bases near salt water.

All of those things degrade structural metal and other parts at the molecular level.


You know a lot more about planes then I do BBB. Are your conclusions just for aluminium cigar tube planes or all aircraft. The DeHaviland Beaver is a 70 year old plane and they rebuild all they can. I believe about 1/2 of all of them are still flying. Most Beavers are float equipped and often landing/taking off exclusively on salt water. Yet most of the crashes are weather related or pilot error not equipment failures. What do you think is the difference.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
May 22nd, 2018 at 3:40:17 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
The Beaver never gets above 20,000 feet and has a maintenance friendly interior wherein things are rather readily visible. Airliners go higher and thru pressurization cycles and always have material obscuring immediate view of and access to structural surfaces. This was an excellent question and I look forward to BBB's response..
May 22nd, 2018 at 3:49:52 PM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
Threads: 6
Posts: 1600
Quote: kenarman
You know a lot more about planes then I do BBB. Are your conclusions just for aluminium cigar tube planes or all aircraft. The DeHaviland Beaver is a 70 year old plane and they rebuild all they can. I believe about 1/2 of all of them are still flying. Most Beavers are float equipped and often landing/taking off exclusively on salt water. Yet most of the crashes are weather related or pilot error not equipment failures. What do you think is the difference.


Beavers are only rarely flown above 14,500 in my experience. Wiki says service ceiling is 18,000 but I'm not sure they're even pressurized. I think the difference is pressurization cycles, because the aircraft material physically expands and contracts under pressurization. There's also a thermal change that doesn't happen at lower altitudes, but cumulative climbing and staying above 15k ft and back down can exacerbate the pressurization effect.

Many beavers are also primarily canvas stiffened with epoxy, though I think dehavilland more recently manus them using a composite or metal. I don't think it's possible to pressurize canvas, at least the type they used to build aircraft in the 40s-70s.

If a person is flying in seawater like you're talking about, say in BC or Alaskan waters, they generally rinse daily in freshwater. Lake landings should not affect them. It's just part of the checklist to get the salt off.

I would be very comfortable flying in any beaver/otter/twin otter/albatross I've ever seen that was properly maintained. They've held up very well for decades. Great line of aircraft.

I got my pilot license in a 1962 C150 (primarily ) that's still flying. I corresponded with the owner a few months ago, and it's still plugging along.

I guess I should add, to fully address your question, my concern is primarily metal jets, which is a large majority of commercial passenger aircraft. I think they have not yet fully understood the molecular affect of decades of service cycles.
Never doubt a small group of concerned citizens can change the world; it's the only thing ever has
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