Sun Country and ethics

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April 20th, 2018 at 7:21:11 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Sun Country Airlines is a small airline with 23 jets that flies out of Minneapolis St Paul. Recently they delivered a group of tourists to Mexico, but they were scheduled to fly back on the last day of the season. A freak snowstorm meant they couldn't fly. As the planes were scheduled to go on different routes the next day, Sun Country simply refunded the passengers their fare and left the passengers to get back to Minnesota on their own.

Needless to say flying at last minute fares can be ultra expensive and time consuming with multiple transfers.

One passenger complained he spent $2,357.60 for air fare plus their cell phone bill from trying to call the airline, or the food they had to buy.
http://www.valleynewslive.com/content/news/new-Man-speaks-out-after-his-experience-on-a-Sun-Country-airline-flight--480195923.html

While certainly legal, what is your opinion on this behavior? Especially the Wizard since he went through a similar experience this January.
April 20th, 2018 at 7:47:09 PM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
Threads: 6
Posts: 1600
Quote: Pacomartin
Sun Country Airlines is a small airline with 23 jets that flies out of Minneapolis St Paul. Recently they delivered a group of tourists to Mexico, but they were scheduled to fly back on the last day of the season. A freak snowstorm meant they couldn't fly. As the planes were scheduled to go on different routes the next day, Sun Country simply refunded the passengers their fare and left the passengers to get back to Minnesota on their own.

Needless to say flying at last minute fares can be ultra expensive and time consuming with multiple transfers.

One passenger complained he spent $2,357.60 for air fare plus their cell phone bill from trying to call the airline, or the food they had to buy.
http://www.valleynewslive.com/content/news/new-Man-speaks-out-after-his-experience-on-a-Sun-Country-airline-flight--480195923.html

While certainly legal, what is your opinion on this behavior? Especially the Wizard since he went through a similar experience this January.


I think it was reprehensible of Sun Country. They should have leased an airplane from someone else for that one flight if they couldn't spare one, and paid for their choice of accommodations in Mexico for their pax until they could get the plane there.

I don't care if they had to lease a smaller biz jet or whatever to make multiple trips. Or give people vouchers after they work a deal with someone else to schedule on their airline as available.

You don't just say, sorry, you're stuck in another country indefinitely. Not and keep your airline in business.
Never doubt a small group of concerned citizens can change the world; it's the only thing ever has
April 20th, 2018 at 8:24:42 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25011
My first thought was, that's what you get
for going to Mexico. Shrug. I stopped
going 30 years ago and it was getting
bad then. The stories I hear now, why
would you ever go there.

Don't drink the water, don't even trust
bottled water. Don't leave anything you
don't want stolen in a rental car, carry
nothing on you of value if you look
like a Gringo, don't drive or go out
after dark, don't leave the grounds
of the luxury resort you're at, on and
on. Why bother going at all.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
April 20th, 2018 at 9:11:58 PM permalink
Wizard
Administrator
Member since: Oct 23, 2012
Threads: 239
Posts: 6095
I, of course, find this outrageous. If they couldn't fly their customers back, then they should have reimbursed every one every penny for what it cost to get back on their own, plus more for the inconvenience. Airlines are abusing the "bad weather" excuse to do whatever they want, even when the issue was mostly their own fault.

Between this and the Allegiant Air story, it is clear the FAA has lost its backbone and letting the airlines do whatever they want. This whole thing is an illustrated example that there is some optimal balance between the private sector and government regulation. In the case of the airlines, we need some more regulation to protect passengers from the abuses of profit-hungry airlines.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
April 20th, 2018 at 9:53:38 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: Wizard
Airlines are abusing the "bad weather" excuse to do whatever they want, even when the issue was mostly their own fault.


Well you can't control the weather, but you can mitigate problems. I wonder how many passengers even understood they were on the last flight of the season? Or that it takes 50 hours and four bus changes to get back to Minnesota? Or that they had no reciprocal agreement with Delta?

Mazatlán 13 h 5 min - every 4 hours $35 - $95 Monterrey
Cuauhtémoc 36 min - every 5 minutes - line 2 $1
Monterrey, Mx 11 h 40 min - hourly - line 9414 $55 - $140 Dallas, Tx
Dallas, Tx 4 h 40 min - hourly - line 7320 $25 - $65 Oklahoma City, OK
Oklahoma City, OK 17 h 30 min - every 3 hours - line 802 $140 - $200 Minneapolis, MN
April 20th, 2018 at 9:58:21 PM permalink
Ayecarumba
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 89
Posts: 1744
Quote: Wizard
I, of course, find this outrageous. If they couldn't fly their customers back, then they should have reimbursed every one every penny for what it cost to get back on their own, plus more for the inconvenience. Airlines are abusing the "bad weather" excuse to do whatever they want, even when the issue was mostly their own fault.

Between this and the Allegiant Air story, it is clear the FAA has lost its backbone and letting the airlines do whatever they want. This whole thing is an illustrated example that there is some optimal balance between the private sector and government regulation. In the case of the airlines, we need some more regulation to protect passengers from the abuses of profit-hungry airlines.

Optimally, the market should punish Sun Country to force every carrier to behave. But are there boycotts, or mass requests for refunds?
April 20th, 2018 at 10:07:38 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Due to the blizzard SCA made the decision to cancel 40 flights in total. 25 were on Saturday, 15 on Sunday.

For MZT and SJD, this was the last weekend we flew for the season. The last flight for MZT was Saturday. The last flight for SJD was Sunday but was already fully booked so we were unable to re-accommodate customers from the cancelled flight.

SCA does not have interline agreements with other airlines, so our options to re-accommodate customers on other airlines are the same as their options to re-accommodate themselves and would have taken us much longer to do so.





I’m sure you’ve seen Sun Country in the media surrounding our flight cancellations that occurred due to the extreme weather over the weekend. I want you to give you an update on our operations and lay out all of the facts so you hear them directly from me—what we did right, what we could have done better, and how we’re moving forward.

The blizzard significantly impacted all of our MSP operations as well as other carriers flying in and out of MSP. Due to the extreme weather, MSP was closed for a total of 9 hours on Saturday causing us to cancel 25 flights, combined with other carriers, the cancellation count came to 495. Network disruptions continued into Sunday. We had to cancel 15 of our flights, 315 flights were cancelled in total. As of yesterday, our operations are fully back up and running to support our regular schedule. No additional flights were cancelled yesterday, whereas, 47 flights from other carriers were cancelled. That is extremely commendable and I want to sincerely thank all of the folks working through this weather event in every capacity. We had airport personnel carry successive shifts to recover, SOC staff slept at Building C in order to be as responsive as possible, call center agents volunteered to work straight through (sleeping at HQ) to try and care for our customers as quickly as possible, crews took care of our rightfully frustrated passengers all over our network. Thank you all for going above and beyond.

Operationally, we have performed well given the circumstances. We should always use these events to find opportunities to improve, but here are the facts:

On Saturday, we made the decision to cancel 40 flights in total. 25 were on Saturday, 15 on Sunday.
The airport was effectively closed for 9 hours on Saturday due to record snowfall.
We diverted five inbound flights to MSP. On Saturday night, we only had four RON aircraft. Usually we have 17, so about 13 of our aircraft were overnighting somewhere they weren’t planned to be.

After the decision to cancel was made on Saturday, we didn’t cancel any more flights. This is good, as rolling cancels are about the worst thing we can do for our customers.

On Monday, we were back to flying a normal schedule.
We need to find ways to improve our customer communications as we failed in that area. Our customer care facility is here in Eagan. Due to the extreme weather conditions and road closures, many of our agents were unable to get to the office throughout the weekend. Many volunteered to come in or work extra shifts, but we still struggled to get to the planned staffing levels. Even if we had been able to staff per the plan, we could have not handled the roughly 6,000 passengers who were affected by a cancelled flight. And, there were many other customers who were inconvenienced that understandably wanted to talk to us over the weekend. Most calls were bounced (busy signal) beginning Saturday all the way through Monday. We’re working hard to dig ourselves out of the situation. All of our customers (except for the passengers that were on the Saturday MZT and SJD cancelled flights) had a confirmed re-accommodation by midnight last night. Let’s get into it as I’m sure you have questions.

For MZT and SJD, this was the last weekend we flew for the season. The last flight for MZT was Saturday. The last flight for SJD was Sunday but was already fully booked so we were unable to re-accommodate customers from the cancelled flight. When the originally scheduled flights were cancelled, the call center couldn’t reliably receive inbound calls. We do not have interline agreements with other airlines, so our options to re-accommodate customers on other airlines are the same as their options to re-accommodate themselves and would have taken us much longer to do so. Many of our customers booked through travel agents or online travel providers which means we do not have access to the passenger’s contact information. In cases that we do have the passenger’s phone number, generally, we reach our customers about 20% of the time. Often times, the emails we send them route through the travel agent or online travel provider and don’t arrive to the customer immediately. So, on Saturday, to communicate with our customers, we could send an email, post something to everyone via our social media channels or our website and hope that it reaches affected passengers. We decided the most efficient way to reach them was via email. After they received an email notifying them that their flight was cancelled, we could only email them with a response to their natural question of “what now?”. That leaves us with sending one of three messages:

We’ll refund your money. Book your own itinerary.
We’ll fly a recovery flight on Monday. (Monday was the soonest day we had a forecast for reliable weather which would have required us to cancel a scheduled roundtrip that day displacing an additional 300 customers. All of our flights are full flying passengers impacted by the cancellations meaning many of these customers would have already been impacted by a cancellation.)
We’ll fly a recovery flight in the future. You will hear from us by Monday as to when that flight will be scheduled. (On Saturday, we would have estimated that we could commit to an aircraft until Monday, or charter another carrier. It turned out, we could have probably committed on Sunday night for a flight on Tuesday.)
If we went with options 2 or 3, many of our customers would want to get home earlier, booking alternative arrangements on another carrier. With hindsight, we should have flown a rescue flight to MZT as service options are limited. SJD has more service options and we felt the best option for those customers was giving them a full roundtrip refund on their Sun Country flight to make alternative arrangements as quickly as possible. Either way, for these routes we should have been reachable and covered their transportation costs if we didn’t fly them home.

The past several days we have been hard at work to make contact with these passengers. Today, we expect to finish the process of reaching all passengers on Saturday’s cancelled MZT and SJD flights. By day’s end they’ll have an email from us, a voicemail from us, or a conversation with us. In this communication, we have made that commitment that in addition to refunding their original roundtrip ticket on Sun Country (which we have expedited above all other refunds), we will also cover any additional reasonable transportation costs they incurred in excess of their original Sun Country roundtrip fare, not limited to the difference they paid on another carrier, but also including taxis, shuttles, any reasonable transportation costs required to get them to and from the airport. We have a special email address set up and staff dedicated to assist those passengers. We are committed to finding them a way home.

Clearly, going forward, we need to improve our ability to handle stresses to our system like what we experienced over the weekend. Automation will be central to that strategy. But, more on that later.

Again, thank you for everything you have done and are actively doing to recover from this weather event while continuing to run our regular operations.

Jude Bricker
President & CEO
April 21st, 2018 at 4:29:24 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
My first thought was, that's what you get
for going to Mexico. Shrug. I stopped
going 30 years ago and it was getting
bad then. The stories I hear now, why
would you ever go there.

Don't drink the water, don't even trust
bottled water. Don't leave anything you
don't want stolen in a rental car, carry
nothing on you of value if you look
like a Gringo, don't drive or go out
after dark, don't leave the grounds
of the luxury resort you're at, on and
on. Why bother going at all.


These things you are hearing are only true in small parts of a large and beautiful country (besides the don't drink the water advice). The exact same things could be said about certain places in America and you wouldn't want people to think about us in the same way you think about Mexico.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
April 21st, 2018 at 6:13:29 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Quote: beachbumbabs
I think it was reprehensible of Sun Country. .
I'm sure the affected passengers and the over-worked ticket agents at other airline desks agree with you.

There were TWO decisions here.

The first decision is one that I agree with. Bite the bullet. Do not let this one situation cascade throughout their operations and disrupt other flights and other passengers. Whatever planes and crews they have, use them as planned. Keep the disruption localized to those two Mexican flights that had to be cancelled.

I'm not sure if this 'end of season' was a legal imposition on the due to treaties or what.

Hiring a relief airplane and arranging ground transportation in Mexico would have been a nightmare for them financially and logistically but they should have attempted it. Atleast they made a prompt announcement of You Are On Your Own, We Will Reimburse Your Credit Cards Momentarily. No hem, no haw, no song, no dance, no lies, no "I don't know", no "not my job".

Shifting the (temporary) financial and logistical burden onto the affected passengers may have been cheaper than leasing a plane and crew as a relief flight. I don't know. I get the impression that this is financially strained airline to begin with. It would probably have been one plane and two crews. I think plane leasing companies would be aware of the shoestring operation and would have demanded full payment of the rescue plane and full payment for the two crews in advance. Did the airline have that kind of money available?

Logistically they made the right decision. Isolate the trouble and do not disrupt every one of their other flights with cascading problems of diverted crews and diverted airplanes.

Ethics? They may have done the right thing. Left the choices to their passengers and refunded all fares. Some passengers may have opted to simply extend their vacation a few days, some may have driven, rode buses, paid for expensive hotels, paid for expensive last minute tickets on other airlines. All those were perhaps annoying but it appears it was the airlines only option.
April 21st, 2018 at 6:17:38 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18204
The problem starts at it being an international flight. The FAA could and should have a few simple rules on this in the USA. Force canceled flights to find accommodations on other airlines. Some kind of system where a canceled ticket can be used for open seats on other carriers and then they straighten out at the end of the month, as they do for other emergency things now.

But this involves Mexico, so bets there are off.

It is a scumbag move, but it is an airline so I expect little less. The story does remind me of why to be a prepper and be able to handle such situations. Can you imagine being maxed on your credit cards and really stranded?
The President is a fink.
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