Challenge to FrGamble

Quote: FrGamble

Take a look at a picture from the Space Station and all will be explained.

Can you really be sure there is a space station? Could this all be a trick performed by Satan? Wouldn't he have the power to do so if he so chose?

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Here's a hint: Self-contradictory statements are not true.

I know. Like when you say "God is real," or "Jesus is alive." That's exactly like saying "Batman is real," or "Abe Lincoln is alive."

What I wonder is, in a rich fictional universe containing the likes of Ueser, Ist, Thoth, Demeter, Aphrodite, Minerva, Batman, Green Lantern, and Prometheus, to name a few, why would you choose such a lame trio as Jehovah, Jesus and the nameless spirit? Hell, lately you've been claiming they won't even do squat to help their "beloved" "children."

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Again, knowing what you know about such things did you think the Higgs boson existed even before it was discovered?

It's the God particle, isn't it? It had to exist, the better to annoy Christians with! :)

Quote: Nareed

Can you really be sure there is a space station? Could this all be a trick performed by Satan? Wouldn't he have the power to do so if he so chose?

According to you, if you see it is real. But I guess you are right, there are more problems to your idea of truth and reality than I first thought.

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I know. Like when you say "God is real," or "Jesus is alive." That's exactly like saying "Batman is real," or "Abe Lincoln is alive."

Umm...those are not self-contradictory statements. A self-contradiction is when you say something like, "All truth is subjective" or "The only thing that is real is the things you can see". You can find the proof that these things are wrong in the very idea itself.

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It's the God particle, isn't it? It had to exist, the better to annoy Christians with! :)

So it did exist before it was discovered?

Quote: FrGamble

According to you, if you see it is real.

You haven't actually come and said if you can see it it's not real, but you maintain plenty of things which cannot be seen, detected, perceive, measured, etc. are real. So I just thought I'd complete it for you.

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Umm...those are not self-contradictory statements.

Of course they are. God is imaginary, and Jesus is dead. To call one real and the other alive is self-contradictory.

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A self-contradiction is when you say something like, "All truth is subjective"

That's not self-contradictory. It's just wrong.

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"The only thing that is real is the things you can see".

That's not even wrong.

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So it did exist before it was discovered?

It's the GOD particle. You tell me.


Q: How many hackles can a physicist raise with a joke?
A: Christianity.
Q: How about without a joke and bad editorial choices?
A: Christianity.

Quote: FrGamble

According to you, if you see it is real. But I guess you are right, there are more problems to your idea of truth and reality than I first thought.

Umm...those are not self-contradictory statements. A self-contradiction is when you say something like, "All truth is subjective" or "The only thing that is real is the things you can see". You can find the proof that these things are wrong in the very idea itself.

None of these are self-contradictory, as they rely on information and truths outside the statement themselves to determine their truth values. 'God is real' by itself is a statement whose truth can not be ascertained within itself.

Quote: TheCesspit

None of these are self-contradictory, as they rely on information and truths outside the statement themselves to determine their truth values. 'God is real' by itself is a statement whose truth can not be ascertained within itself.

To say, "the only thing that is real is the things you can see" defeats itself because that philosophical statement itself is not something that you can see. It is an idea that cannot be tested, observed, or seen. You could ask someone who says such a statement, "Where have you seen the idea that the only thing that is real is the things you can see." It is similar to saying, "all truth is subjective." The next question you could ask is, "Is the truth that 'all truth is subjective' also subjective?"

To say "God is real" is a statement of fact that is based on evidence, experience, and observation. Even if you disagree with or deny the evidence (which is ludicrous, by the way) there is nothing self-contradictory in the statement itself. If I say you are a woman. It might not be true but it is not self-contradictory, it would just be false and you could show evidence as to why you were not a woman. The unique nature of self-contradictory statements are that they are proven false by their own logic.

Quote: FrGamble

To say, "the only thing that is real is the things you can see" defeats itself because that philosophical statement itself is not something that you can see.

Are you reading with your eyes closed?

Of course you can perceive it. It can be read, heard or deduced, and it can make sense. What more do you need? Hearts and flowers?

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It is an idea that cannot be tested, observed, or seen.

It can certainly be tested, and we saw how it can be perceived. If we were incapable of perceiving abstractions, we'd be swinging from the trees and running scared from predators. Things need not be tangible to be real. Abstractions is what human brains run on.

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To say "God is real" is a statement of fact that is based on evidence, experience, and observation.

I dare you to show me a god, any god.

Quote: Nareed

It can certainly be tested, and we saw how it can be perceived. If we were incapable of perceiving abstractions, we'd be swinging from the trees and running scared from predators. Things need not be tangible to be real. Abstractions is what human brains run on.

Thank you for clarifying your position. Maybe it would be better to state something like, "Anything that is real has to be able to be perceived intellectually." That would make more sense and I think would be true.

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I dare you to show me a god, any god.

Instead of asking me why don't you ask God to reveal Himself to you.

Quote: FrGamble

Instead of asking me why don't you ask God to reveal Himself to you.

Why don't I ask Batman to investigate who stole my cell phone charger? Why don't I ask Astarte to drop by for tea? Why don't I ask Mickey Mouse to teach you basic logic? Why don't I ask Luke Skywalker for Jedi lessons?

Quote: Nareed

? Why don't I ask Mickey Mouse to teach you basic logic?

FrGamble could at least give Logic last rites. He's abused it so many times, it is likely dead by now.

Quote: Nareed

Why don't I ask Batman to investigate who stole my cell phone charger? Why don't I ask Astarte to drop by for tea? Why don't I ask Mickey Mouse to teach you basic logic? Why don't I ask Luke Skywalker for Jedi lessons?

None of these things will help you because they are all fictional, though sometimes I do think Mickey Mouse might know a little more about logic than you do. Seriously, ask God to reveal Himself to you. God is real and it is a prayer that I believe is always heard.