Challenge to FrGamble

Quote: FrGamble

So you're kind of an agnostic then?

Nope. I do not believe there is an omniscient, omnipresent creator god. If there is a prime mover, and that object is 'God' in some sense, then it matters not to me one way or another. Unless they designed this whole mess, then they didn't do a very good job.

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As I've told you before I agree that this does not prove the existence of my God or anyone's God for that matter. The next part is the hard part where we have to examine what evidence there is and make a reasonable decision of faith.

I have done so, and made my decision :p

Quote: TheCesspit

Nope. I do not believe there is an omniscient, omnipresent creator god. If there is a prime mover, and that object is 'God' in some sense, then it matters not to me one way or another. Unless they designed this whole mess, then they didn't do a very good job.

As Creationists like to say, I find the Universe perfectly designed for NON-intelligent creation.

If we had a all powerful creator there is no need to set billions of years of process for the Universe to exist as it did in Christ time. Just instant whip it all up with Adam and Eve.

Certainly no reason for evolution. Just more instant whip and have humans right off.

Now maybe a creator wanted to create a fossil record, but he would only do it to hide himself, not reveal himself. So even if he is there, it's more important that he wanted to stay hidden by the evidence he created.

Quote: TheCesspit

Nope. I do not believe there is an omniscient, omnipresent creator god. If there is a prime mover, and that object is 'God' in some sense, then it matters not to me one way or another.

Yeah, that is my thought as well. If we just stop at the prime mover then while it is true it doesn't really matter to me. This type of "God" is certainly not worth worshiping or loving.

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I have done so, and made my decision :p

Good for you. I find that so many atheists will not even admit to the notion of a prime mover and then never get to the next harder step of examining the evidence and teaching of the different religions to make a decision about faith. If I may ask what was it about Christianity that you found lacking or not true, helpful, or consistent?

Quote: rxwine

As Creationists like to say, I find the Universe perfectly designed for NON-intelligent creation.

As an intelligent creation yourself making this statement I find it strange.

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If we had a all powerful creator there is no need to set billions of years of process for the Universe to exist as it did in Christ time. Just instant whip it all up with Adam and Eve.

So you just don't like the way an eternal God outside of time created the universe? I don't see how that is a valid criticism.

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Now maybe a creator wanted to create a fossil record, but he would only do it to hide himself, not reveal himself. So even if he is there, it's more important that he wanted to stay hidden by the evidence he created.

I think a fossil record and evolution point to God. As does any created thing and especially any living thing. How does this mean god wanted to stay hidden?

Quote: FrGamble

Who is Rob Singer?

You don't want to know. LOL! Shhhhh.... we don't want to wake him.

Quote: FrGamble

I think a fossil record and evolution point to God.

From 40 years of first hand experience dealing
with Xtions, absolutely everything 'points' to
god. It's easy to do when there is no god,
everything fits the template, because there
is no template.

Quote: FrGamble

I think a fossil record and evolution point to God. As does any created thing and especially any living thing. How does this mean god wanted to stay hidden?

Suppose I was a watchmaker with the ability to poof watches into existence with the word "abracadabra" but instead I just showed you the slow assembly of a watch in a watchmaker's shop with the normal tools. Why should I bother with that when I can make them appear instantly?

So, I'm hiding my power from you if I do it the way you would expect.

God doesn't need 14 billion years or evolution either. If everything points to a god, it points to a hidden god at best.

Or most likely no god at all.

I think it points to a God who doesn't want to be looked at as a watchmaker.

Quote: FrGamble

I think it points to a God who doesn't want to be looked at as a watchmaker.

Even though I can buy a watch, doesn't mean I might not enjoy making one.

Quote: rxwine

Suppose I was a watchmaker with the ability to poof watches into existence with the word "abracadabra" but instead I just showed you the slow assembly of a watch in a watchmaker's shop with the normal tools. Why should I bother with that when I can make them appear instantly?

So, I'm hiding my power from you if I do it the way you would expect.

God doesn't need 14 billion years or evolution either. If everything points to a god, it points to a hidden god at best.

Or most likely no god at all.

You are correct. Why would God go through slow and painful methods with all the suffering of death and disease to produce today's biota. Death before sin is decidedly unbiblical.