Secualrism vs Religion

Quote: Nareed

Yes, well, by definition something original is done originally only once. Afterwards it may be repeated, but then it's not original.

So by definition it's Derivative Sin, but maybe that doesn't have the same ring to it. also maybe it would expose the terrible injustice of it.

You really don't like being the idea that our actions have consequences that extend beyond ourselves. I think it is called Original Sin because all sin is really just a repeat of the original one. Namely putting ourselves above others and God and doing what we want to do regardless of if it is right or what the consequences might be.

Quote: FrGamble

You really don't understand Original Sin at all. Original Sin is the realization of how extraordinary awesome we are, so far above all the other animals and full of infinite capacity to learn and to love.

Ah, you start with the belief that you are above all other animals and creatures, which itself is a bit of a leap.

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Shakespeare, being a good Catholic, recognized this truth but also surely knew the other side of humanity too. The part that led to incest and murder. How can we be both things at the same time: awesome and prone to sin? Answer, Original Sin.

Surely Freewill, not Original Sin? Surely it's the ability to make ones own moral choices that is can lead to this dichotomy, and not the sin of eating the apple from the tree of knowledge? Because if it's the latter, it seems to be a steep price to pay for one apple, and judging the sons and daughters for their parents crimes is not something most moralities do. Each being is it's own independent party.

Quote: FrGamble

Yeah I think I overshot with saying he was a good Catholic.

He was a Protestant. When he was alive
Catholicism was illegal in Britain. Of
course there is speculation (by Catholics)
that he was a 'secret' Catholic, but nobody
knows or probably even cares.

Quote: FrGamble

You really don't like being the idea that our actions have consequences that extend beyond ourselves.

I usually do let badly written premises go. but for someone who hammers others constantly with logic and reason, I'm reluctant to allow you such courtesy.

In answer: a person cannot be an idea.

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I think it is called Original Sin because all sin is really just a repeat of the original one.

No, that's derivative sin, or at beast imitational sin. It's certainly not original.

And that's clearly not what the name means.

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Namely putting ourselves above others and God and doing what we want to do regardless of if it is right or what the consequences might be.

So putting yourself above others requires you do things that aren't right? There are no alternatives?


Do you know that's what every nation on Earth has always done, since the beginning of time, and will continue to do indefinitely? Why, according to your logic of the vengeful deity, has humanity not been wiped out?

Quote: TheCesspit

Ah, you start with the belief that you are above all other animals and creatures, which itself is a bit of a leap.

Really?!?

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Surely Freewill, not Original Sin? Surely it's the ability to make ones own moral choices that is can lead to this dichotomy, and not the sin of eating the apple from the tree of knowledge? Because if it's the latter, it seems to be a steep price to pay for one apple, and judging the sons and daughters for their parents crimes is not something most moralities do. Each being is it's own independent party.

If we had freewill but not Original Sin that it would seem that we would not have any problem doing what is right and just all the time. No one wants to lie, cheat, steal, and hurt others. Yet for some reason we are tempted to do these things. Freewill is obvious that we posses it, but it doesn't answer the conundrum we find ourselves in as human beings.

It is not eating an apple, but rather claiming for ourselves the knowledge of good and evil. It is making ourselves the subjective masters of what we feel we should do or not do. It is to make ourselves God and to destroy the relationship of trust we have with our creator. This is also why it is not a personal sin or personal action of any descendent of Adam and Eve. It is a condition that is built into us a human beings, like part of our DNA. It is not unfair that certain traits that make us human are passed down to our daughters and sons. Each being is its own independent party and the choice to commit personal sin is very different than the reality of Original Sin we are born with.

Quote: Nareed

I usually do let badly written premises go. but for someone who hammers others constantly with logic and reason, I'm reluctant to allow you such courtesy.

In answer: a person cannot be an idea.

Yeah, sorry that was a poorly written sentence. What I meant was: You don't like the idea that our actions can have consequences beyond ourselves.

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No, that's derivative sin, or at beast imitational sin. It's certainly not original.

And that's clearly not what the name means.

Original Sin is not an action at all. It is not some type of sin that is committed. It is maybe best described as a tendency or an attitude in us that leaves us vulnerable to sin and to not trust in God.

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So putting yourself above others requires you do things that aren't right? There are no alternatives?

Maybe you could give an example of a right action that necessities you putting yourself above others?

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Do you know that's what every nation on Earth has always done, since the beginning of time, and will continue to do indefinitely? Why, according to your logic of the vengeful deity, has humanity not been wiped out?

This isn't very well written either and can have different meanings so I'll try to address them. Any nation that puts itself above the care of its people will eventually be wiped out. Any nation that thinks that other nations are there to serve it is a dangerous thing.

Quote: FrGamble

Yeah, sorry that was a poorly written sentence. What I meant was: You don't like the idea that our actions can have consequences beyond ourselves.

Whether I like it or not is irrelevant. I don't much care for quantum mechanics. Both are logical facts of nature.

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Original Sin is not an action at all.

So you're fine with your deities allegedly punishing people even when they don't act.

Not surprised. They're punished for not believing, so why not for not acting?

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Maybe you could give an example of a right action that necessities you putting yourself above others?

Do most people work for their own benefit, or for that of other people?

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This isn't very well written either and can have different meanings so I'll try to address them. Any nation that puts itself above the care of its people will eventually be wiped out. Any nation that thinks that other nations are there to serve it is a dangerous thing.

All nations put their own interests above those of other nations. It has always been this way, and it will always be this way.

This does not mean nations don't respect the rights of other nations. And in democracies, at least, the people dictate the nature of their governments most of the time. it's clear all governments in democracies abuse their citizenry, but that's largely based on what voters demand.

Quote: Nareed

So you're fine with your deities allegedly punishing people even when they don't act.

Not surprised. They're punished for not believing, so why not for not acting?

Besides losing the benefits of a religious faith you are not punished for not believing and you certainly are not punished when you don't act sinfully.

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Do most people work for their own benefit, or for that of other people?

I think work is a good example. We work in order to help another or a company do well, we also get just (hopefully) wages for doing so. But work goes beyond that. Work gives us dignity and the sense of contributing to society and the common good.




I know a while ago I promised you that I would never PM you but I was wondering if you could help me discern a possible mission trip to Mexico City next year. I have some concerns personally and professionally about going and had a few questions about the city. From what I gather I think you live and work there and would be a good person to ask about it. I would also be willing to meet for a coffee or something while there if you promise not to punch me in nose.

Quote: FrGamble

I have some concerns personally and professionally about going and had a few questions about the city.

Could you trust anything I told you? Wouldn't an atheist send you to the worst possible places in town, and maybe get kickbacks for doing so?

Quote: FrGamble

Besides losing the benefits of a religious faith you are not punished for not believing and you certainly are not punished when you don't act sinfully.

But not accepting Jesus as your personal savior (whatever the hell that means) and not doing something about your original sin lands you in Hell, doesn't it?

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I think work is a good example. We work in order to help another or a company do well, we also get just (hopefully) wages for doing so.

HELL NO!

Do you think I care to make more money for wealthy people? That's their affair, not mine. Certainly it's not my responsibility. The thing is that I get paid from what the company makes, therefore I do my bit to see that it makes something.