Two Gods or One

Quote: Evenbob

Nope, I'm sure there is no god, and without
god, you have no logic at all.

There is surely no logic at all in what you say here.

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The universe has been here forever, there
is no beginning. You have trouble with
this because nothing in your faulty logic
deals with it.

Here again absolutely no logic, not even a little bit.

Quote: Nareed

Ok. Life exists despite the conditions in the universe, not because of them. Most places in the Solar System, never mind the universe, are hostile to life as we know it. To call it fine tuned for life because here and there we find pockets suitable for it, is to miss the forest because you bumped into a tree.

No, it is more like discovering a beautiful tree in the midst of a wasteland and marveling at it. Everywhere in the entire universe the laws of gravity, weak and strong atomic forces, and many other physical laws are the same. They are such that changing any of them an almost incomprehensibly small amount would amount to not only no life like we understand it but no planets or stars.

Quote: FrGamble

Here again absolutely no logic, not even a little bit.

Yet other major religions, Hinduism and
Buddhism, totally embrace it. Because
it's logic personified.

Quote: Nareed

If you had nothing but over-brewed coffee made in dirty machines with faulty filters, you wouldn't know you were drinking bad coffee, until you had some freshly brewed on a clean machine with a good filter.

Living beings are the bad version of the former. A car designed by a reputable firm is like fine, silky espresso freshly brewed at a high-end coffee house.

So are you saying that really bad coffee can make really good coffee? I still don't follow you. I think you might be saying that we as human beings have the capability of making things that are even more impressive than ourselves. Ignoring for a moment that none of these impressive things like cars can build themselves, can they do any of the other things we can do? Can they love? Can they heal themselves? Can they fix each other and care for each other? Can they create copies of themselves? Can they build even better cars and always want to improve?

Don't you think the fact that we can build amazing cars and rocket ships proves that we are amazing, intelligent, and complex and not the other way around?

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Philosophizing is a wretched activity to begin with. Fortunately science doesn't usually engage in it. Philosophizing is making broad philosophical generalization contrary, or without regard, to evidence.

Yes fortunately it does not! Philosophy means love of wisdom so I guess I can see why you think it is wretched. Sorry, that was a low blow:)

Philosophy done right is using evidence and engaging our reason to come up with answers to the bigger questions as to why and how?

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You ought to know. The church has been unencumbered by ethical or moral considerations for most of its existence.

You really take disagreement hard, don't you?

Quote: FrGamble

Okay, first of all I do believe as I think science points out that we all have a common ancestor as a primordial Eve and Adam. Now I know the science is not saying that there was some primordial couple and many scientists point out that these common ancestors to every human being alive today might never have met.

There is a very old fossil of a female hominid which very likely is the earliest common ancestor of all humans who've ever lived.

The bad news for your scenario is that she wasn't h. Sapiens.

While I've no qualms in considering all but the earliest hominids to be human, in fact their existence had more in common with modern apes than even paleolithic peoples.

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There relationship with God at that time was perfect and they had committed no sin. Their friendship with God and closeness to Him spiritually meant there was no shame or guilt and they communed perfectly with nature and those around them.

How did they keep from aging? If you knew that, you'd make trillions literally overnight, and live a very long life to boot.


Anyway, your scenario is completely impossible given what we know and experience about life and biology.

The only "religion" compatible with scientific knowledge of the universe is Deism. It's also the most nearly rational. Of course it's not an actual religion.

Quote: FrGamble

No, it is more like discovering a beautiful tree in the midst of a wasteland and marveling at it.

No, it's what I said: missing the forest for having bumped into a tree.

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Everywhere in the entire universe the laws of gravity, weak and strong atomic forces, and many other physical laws are the same. They are such that changing any of them an almost incomprehensibly small amount would amount to not only no life like we understand it but no planets or stars.

It sounds so nice, it's a shame to tell you it isn't true.

1) You're overlooking the very serious, very mainstream idea of a multiverse (ugly word; we need a new one). But even if you toss it aside as desperate or convenient, then:

2) Simulations of different values to the four known fundamental forces, have produced a range of universes little different from our own. Even in some cases where the weak force was removed entirely, things remained close to the same.

Quote: Nareed

No, it's what I said: missing the forest for having bumped into a tree.

What forest are you talking about? I thought you alluded to the fact that most of our universe is an empty wasteland devoid of life?

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It sounds so nice, it's a shame to tell you it isn't true.

1) You're overlooking the very serious, very mainstream idea of a multiverse (ugly word; we need a new one). But even if you toss it aside as desperate or convenient, then:

You kind of beat me to it.

Quote:

2) Simulations of different values to the four known fundamental forces, have produced a range of universes little different from our own. Even in some cases where the weak force was removed entirely, things remained close to the same.

I'd like to read about these simulations because everything I have ever read or seen shows that any small change to any of these forces makes anything remotely close to the universe we know impossible.

Quote: FrGamble

God is only reached through logic.

What? You (and lots of others) say god
talks to you on a regular basis. You've
even said to me that should be proof
of gods existence.

Now you're saying he can only be reached
thru logic, god talking to you is no longer proof?
What are you saying, you don't make sense.

It leads me to believe you're flailing around
with no real way to show gods existence.
You're grasping at straws, hoping some of
the Jello you're flinging sticks to the wall.

Since I have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus it is logical that He exists.

Quote: FrGamble

Since I have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus it is logical that He exists.

Very funny. I have a personal relationship with
my wife and I can produce her for any test
you want to run. In your relationship with
Jesus you can produce exactly zip for proof.