'All are equal, but some are more equal than others.'

"Primus inter pares" means "First among equals"

It's a title used around the world.

The Chief Justice of the Supreme court is often called "Primus inter pares".

The members of the Old Catholic Church believe that they follow the basic beliefs as contemporary Catholicism, but they do not acknowledge the Pope as Pontiff or as Vicar of Christ, but instead him as "Primus inter Pares"and respect his ecclesiastical office of Bishop of Rome.

The "prime minister" of British and Japanese Parliament is often called "Primus inter Pares".



But as you can see from the title of the thread, lifted from Animal Farm, the phrase invokes a natural cynicism.

Do you believe that the title can exist in reality?

Quote: Pacomartin

But as you can see from the title of the thread, lifted from Animal Farm, the phrase invokes a natural cynicism.

Do you believe that the title can exist in reality?

It can in some cases, biggest things are the rules need to be set up right and and the person in charge needs to not care so much about power. Most people really do not want to be in charge. If you get a person like this they probably really will just accept that someone has to direct the meetings and work. The person has to be the kind that knows most people will sit down and get their job done in most cases with little direction. But the group has to be the same kind. When I was in oil and gas was a perfect example. Only time I ever heard "get to work" was when almost everyone was checking out a first round Final Four game because the picks in the office were near 50/50. Even then it was a "come on, guys!" kind of thing. The lead had the power, but there was minimal need to use it unless a person was a screw-up or something.

OTOH, too many people want to be in charge just to be able to tell people what to do. This is the kind of person who often wants the job of a screw in a prison. Or the kid who makes swing manager at the QSR. They get intoxicated by the least bit of power.

Can it exist? Sometimes, but it rare.

Quote: AZDuffman

This is the kind of person who often wants the job of a screw in a prison. Or the kid who makes swing manager at the QSR. They get intoxicated by the least bit of power.

Teachers, jail guards, etc. sure. But there is always the reality of back stabbing and other power plays. Consider the Public Address annoucement: There will be a meeting on where to hold the political convention; the meeting will be held in Mayor Daly's office. Equals? Nope.

I think it is a contradiction in terms.

I like AZDuffman's comments and next to the title, "Servant of the Servants of God" I think "First Among Equals" is my favorite title of the Pope. I think it means that the community is the most important thing and only when certain things need to be defined that are causing division or confusion should this "first among equals" exercise his "power". Pope Francis' recent efforts to talk about important things in the context of a synod is a good example. Also in his regular role as this first the ordinary teaching of this person does indeed carry a certain weight but not to stifle discussion but to help set the boundaries and clarify certain truths.

Quote: Pacomartin

The members of the Old Catholic Church believe that they follow the basic beliefs as contemporary Catholicism, but they do not acknowledge the Pope as Pontiff or as Vicar of Christ, but instead him as "Primus inter Pares"and respect his ecclesiastical office of Bishop of Rome.

I was hoping, Fr G, you would comment on this. Does he have the "they" mixed up?

>they do not acknowledge the Pope as Pontiff or as Vicar of Christ [etc]

as written, "they" would be the Old Catholic Church

Is that right, or did Mr. Martin mean to indicate the opposite ?

Contemporary Catholicism holding him to be not more than Bishop of Rome is what I would expect

Quote: odiousgambit

as written, "they" would be the Old Catholic Church
Is that right, or did Mr. Martin mean to indicate the opposite ?

No, I meant that the "Old Catholic Church" does not acknowledge the Pope as Pontiff.

The English word "catholic" was an adjective from the mid 1300's and it meant "of the doctrines of the ancient Church," literally "universally accepted," from French catholique, from Church Latin catholicus "universal, general," from Greek katholikos, from phrase kath' holou "on the whole, in general" .

After the Protestant Reformation began the word was applied to the "Roman Catholic church" as a noun.

"Old Catholics" are splinter groups that claim to maintain the spirit of the church, but reject the infallibility of the Pope. The term "Old Catholic" was first used in 1853 to describe the members of the See of Utrecht who did not recognize any infallible papal authority. They are using the word "catholic" more in the original sense.

For instance: Carlos Duarte Costa (July 21, 1888 – March 26, 1961) was the second Brazilian Roman Catholic bishop of Botucatu (1924-1937). He had radical ideas, but he had the support of a Brazilian Cardinal, Sebastião Leme da Silveira Cintra who died in 1942. Once the Cardinal died, Duarte Costa was formally accused by the Brazilian government of being a communist sympathizer. He was arrested on June 6, 1944 and imprisoned in Belo Horizonte. In May 1945 Duarte Costa gave newspaper interviews accusing Brazil's papal nunciate of Nazi-Fascist spying, and accused Rome of having aided and abetted Hitler. In addition, he announced plans to set up his own Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church, in which priests would be permitted to marry (and hold regular jobs in the lay world), personal confessions and the praying of rosaries would be abolished and bishops would be elected by popular vote. In response the Vatican finally laid against him the penalty of excommunication on July 2, 1945. He went ahead with his plans to establish the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church (Portuguese: Igreja Católica Apostólica Brasileira or ICAB) . ICAB does not acknowledge Roman Catholic orders as valid after 1968 and believes that they no longer have the Catholic understanding of ordination, since the ordination rites have allegedly changed dramatically. ICAB has about half a million members.

The are other "Old Catholic" denominations.

Like Augustus discovered, false modesty goes a very long way. One can easily replace a republic with a dictatorial autocracy, if one merely refrains from wearing the corresponding title. If the bogus title connotes equality, that's good. If it connotes subservience, that's even better!

Quote: Pacomartin

No, I meant that the "Old Catholic Church" does not acknowledge the Pope as Pontiff.

The English word "catholic" was an adjective from the mid 1300's and it meant "of the doctrines of the ancient Church," literally "universally accepted," from French catholique, from Church Latin catholicus "universal, general," from Greek katholikos, from phrase kath' holou "on the whole, in general" .

After the Protestant Reformation began the word was applied to the "Roman Catholic church" as a noun.

"Old Catholics" are splinter groups that claim to maintain the spirit of the church, but reject the infallibility of the Pope. The term "Old Catholic" was first used in 1853 to describe the members of the See of Utrecht who did not recognize any infallible papal authority. They are using the word "catholic" more in the original sense.

For instance: Carlos Duarte Costa (July 21, 1888 – March 26, 1961) was the second Brazilian Roman Catholic bishop of Botucatu (1924-1937). He had radical ideas, but he had the support of a Brazilian Cardinal, Sebastião Leme da Silveira Cintra who died in 1942. Once the Cardinal died, Duarte Costa was formally accused by the Brazilian government of being a communist sympathizer. He was arrested on June 6, 1944 and imprisoned in Belo Horizonte. In May 1945 Duarte Costa gave newspaper interviews accusing Brazil's papal nunciate of Nazi-Fascist spying, and accused Rome of having aided and abetted Hitler. In addition, he announced plans to set up his own Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church, in which priests would be permitted to marry (and hold regular jobs in the lay world), personal confessions and the praying of rosaries would be abolished and bishops would be elected by popular vote. In response the Vatican finally laid against him the penalty of excommunication on July 2, 1945. He went ahead with his plans to establish the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church (Portuguese: Igreja Católica Apostólica Brasileira or ICAB) . ICAB does not acknowledge Roman Catholic orders as valid after 1968 and believes that they no longer have the Catholic understanding of ordination, since the ordination rites have allegedly changed dramatically. ICAB has about half a million members.

The are other "Old Catholic" denominations.

OK. I have been aware of the Apostles Creed including the phrase "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic and apostolic Church" .... that creed being attached to many/most Protestant churches as well as the Roman Catholic Church, and I know instances where the word catholic in the creed has caused confusion. So this was similar, me the victim LOL

Quote: odiousgambit

.. that creed being attached to many/most Protestant churches as well as the Roman Catholic Church, and I know instances where the word catholic in the creed has caused confusion.

The Apostle's Creed in Latin would be much older than the Protestant Reformation.

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum,
sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, sanctorum communionem,
remissionem peccatorum,
carnis resurrectionem,
vitam aeternam.