Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

Let me ask you what is the greatest poverty in the world?

Starvation. Then hunger.

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This is just plain crazy. Are you judging alleviating suffering by how much money you throw at poor people?

You think I'm talking about philanthropy? Hell, no. Industry, services, jobs, you know, J-O-B-S, in particular productive jobs. That's the one and only way to get people out of poverty. Philanthropy can help, directly or indirectly, but it's not an essential requirement.

You know, an average middle class person in the West today is far richer, materially and spiritually, than the greediest Roman emperor ever dreamt of being. Sure, I may not be able to construct an ostentatious church like the Hagia Sophia, but I have access to more knowledge, more entertainment, real healthcare, safe food and drink, better overall sanitary conditions, and swifter modes of transportation, than Justinian could even begin to hope for.

What would you rather have? The Imperial box at the Constantinople Hippodrome, or the world's knowledge, art, literature and affordable entertainment literally in the palm of your hand?

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Ironically even if you were the Church over its history and through its institutions has given more than all the philanthropists combined and squared.

And perhaps accomplished a small millionth of a fraction as a result.

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If you are really talking about alleviating suffering and eliminating poverty than you cannot be just talking about economics, as important as that is. You have to be also talking about treating people with dignity and helping them see their infinite worth and goodness.

When you give someone a productive job where previously there was subsistence farming or less, you're telling them they're capable of producing something of value, of supporting themselves, of making their live better spiritually and materially. Do you see no dignity or recognition of goodness and self-worth in that?

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You can't do this from a helicopter writing checks.

No, but you can do what I describe from a corporate office, while building a company, or even from a basement or garage (ask Jobs and Wozniak).

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Again you are thinking wrongly about this. First of all the Catholic Church continues to be by far the largest charitable organization in the world.

Charity be damned. It's a palliative at best, though sometimes a necessary one, and a feel-good but otherwise useless or near-useless gesture at worst.

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Maybe you are suggesting that the Church sell some of its priceless art so that some rich collector can put it in his living room

No. They do a good job preserving it.

But look up how the Mormon church invested in Utah. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Quote: FrGamble

It is a great accomplishment to excel at these things and it can be a great blessing to the world and a source of healthy pride but it is fleeting and elusive as anyone who truly strives to excel at these things will tell you.

I see you don't speak bad Yiddish :)

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How long can you be at the dizzying heights of excellence or stand on the pinnacle of success in these fields?

Forever.

Quote: Dalex64

Unfortunately, I find inconsistencies and contradictions that require a lot of work to attempt to explain away.

I think when we get to this level of discussion we find that this thread is not accurately titled. While the Gospel message of a God who so loves the world that He sent His only Son so that we may be saved from our sins seems simple enough the underlying reasons behind our need for salvation is not a simple question.

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If heaven is a place of perfect existence where we have free will and can not sin and have no evil temptations, why don't we all just exist there in the first place?

Because there is some benefit to us as human beings in growing in wisdom and virtue in the world. Again we are not just spiritual beings we learn and grow and develop through experiences. While I imagine we could have just been created in Heaven with these experiences programmed into as if they really happened, I don't think that is how God works and would not be the best for us.

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If god is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving, why did he create creatures that he knew he would want to destroy all of in the flood?

First of all He did not want to destroy all life in the flood, He wanted to eliminate sinful people who had fallen completely away from Him and threatened the only remaining faithful and good family left. Secondly, I do think we have to acknowledge the risk God is taking in creating us with such freedom, a risk He is willing to take if it means that we can truly love Him and each other.

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Why did he need to reveal himself to us slowly over time, in stages?

It is the same reason teachers use a pedagogical method that builds over time. You don't begin teaching math with calculus. Good teachers go at the pace of the students and when they have mastered one concept you build on it and introduce another. Moving a violent people to the idea that we should turn the other cheek takes time.

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See, I can't even begin to try to ask "why are we here, what is our purpose" and assign meaning as coming from a supernatural cause if none of the possible supernatural explanations (all religions) make sense.

Not only do these supernatural explanations Christianity provides make sense I believe they are the only answers to understanding who we are as human beings. Why do we desire goodness and extol virtue? Why do we celebrate those who care for the poor and needy? Why do we have trouble living up to our own personal standards of goodness much less God's? How can we explain how different we are than the rest of creation?

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I have been reading your posts carefully and thoroughly, thank you for them.

I am trying to do the same and I appreciate it. Please know that these faulting attempts of mine are nothing compared to the wisdom and beautiful answers to these questions that have been discussed and debated in the Church over thousands of years.

Quote: Nareed

Starvation. Then hunger.

Maybe starving and hungering for love. You see love will take care of these necessary physical needs and add to it the more important spiritual needs we al have. Simple way to determine this. Is it better to feed someone luscious foods dropped from a plane or feed them simple food around a dining room table?

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When you give someone a productive job where previously there was subsistence farming or less, you're telling them they're capable of producing something of value, of supporting themselves, of making their live better spiritually and materially. Do you see no dignity or recognition of goodness and self-worth in that?

Often jobs are used to make a human person into a cog or machine that runs a big company. I too think jobs are essential to the dignity of the human person, labor is a great source of recognizing our self-worth. However, you seem to think that if these big companies just hired everyone and gave them jobs they would have eliminated poverty and restored human dignity. Read about the coal mines and big companies in early American history. They created lots of jobs that reduced human worth and often ironically made people poor.

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No, but you can do what I describe from a corporate office, while building a company, or even from a basement or garage (ask Jobs and Wozniak).

Yes, but you cannot do what I describe from a corporate office.

Quote: FrGamble

Please know that these faulting attempts of mine are nothing compared to the wisdom and beautiful answers to these questions that have been discussed and debated in the Church over thousands of years.

It always happens when man takes care
of his daily needs, he then has too much
time on his hands and sits around
producing nothing except fanciful
gibberish that makes him feel good about
himself, and inventing gods that fawn
over his every thought. Thinking you're
the apple of some gods eye is just another
form of schizophrenia.

'schizophrenia: difficulty distinguishing between what is real and what is imaginary'

They have meds for this disorder, you know.

Quote: Nareed

Your highest aspiration seems to be to become Jehovah's tukhus lekker.

Of course, kissing gods ass forever is
the ultimate goal of every Yahweh
worshiper. Because there is no god,
it all comes down to self worship. In
heaven forever, worshiping themselves.
Luckily heaven and hell don't exist,
except for the ones we create on earth.
I can't imagine a bigger hell than being
trapped in an organized religion and
not being able to even talk yourself out
of it.

I think it is still a pretty simple question:

If God can create a perfect world, and perfect beings to live in that world, why didn't he?

And now I will digress.

How can angels, beings that are surely in closer communion to god than we are, have the choice and ability to sin and betray him?

Given that some angels betrayed him, how can all of the angels that were not cast out now NOT have the ability to sin and betray him, and how can all those who were cast out not have the ability to repent? Why are their roles now static and unchangeable?

How could a person who is hypothetically ignorant of all religions in the world choose between them, when all of them claim to answer the important questions, and all of them offer the same quality of philosophical evidence, and all of them share the same physical evidence and claim all of these things apply to their beliefs alone?

I see I have now gone well beyond simple questions.

Quote: Dalex64

How could a person who is hypothetically ignorant of all religions in the world choose between them.

Even I know the answer to that one. They
send out missionaries to get directly to
the most gullible, hopefully before some
other religions missionary got there first.

There are always lost people willing to
latch onto any ridiculous religion, be it
Christianity or even Mormonism. There's
a sucker born every minute, as PT Barnum
put it. They're seeking, and look! God has
sent someone to snatch them up and
answer all their questions. They don't
have to 'choose', as you said, they have
been 'chosen'. Unlucky them.

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe starving and hungering for love.

<roll-eyes>

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They created lots of jobs that reduced human worth and often ironically made people poor.

Proof? This isn't "god," so tangible proof must exist.

Quote: Nareed

Proof? This isn't "god," so tangible proof must exist.

Do you not know of the deplorable conditions of workers who were provided jobs by big companies and made into objects, worked in unsafe conditions, paid with scrip, and were kicked out of their houses if they lost their jobs or couldn't work? It was so bad that the Church encouraged workers to form unions to protect themselves and their families from those you say were trying to eliminate poverty!?!

This moving song is all the proof you need: