Simple question?

Quote: petroglyph

I disagree. We can live up to our personal standards, at that time. Standards for non xtians are fungible , the difference is we know the voices in our heads are our own. Does the voice in your head make you feel bad because you broke some agreement or expectation with a super entity that hangs out in your head? When the thoughts finally settle down, is it your voice in your head forgiving you, or is it some other voice? What does it sound like, you or God?

The great thing about morality is it is objective and moral. I am sure that the "voice in your head" that convicts you when you do something wrong is the same voice of God, or conscience, that I hear. It is also the same voice fro both of us that forgives us and helps us to feel we are loved. It is both me and God and you and God. You, and all of us, are made in the image of God. He created you and given you a conscience and guide. You can of course develop and strengthen that conscience through education and virtue. You can also ignore and weaken that conscience by ignorance and sin.

I'm glad you bring up this voice though that is common for every human being. Where does that come from? If we were completely in charge of all our choices and decisions we must ask ourselves where in me is this dissension or agreement coming from? It shouldn't be there if it was all about me and my life was completely my own.

Quote:

I'm assuming that you are needing confession for committing sin? Why would you sin if you accepted that it were a sin in the first place? I do think if I believed what you profess to believe, I wouldn't commit what is said to be sins? Is that the devil making you sin?

It doesn't sound like you get much peace from religion with all that going on in your head all the time.

Do your thoughts keep you awake at night?

As you know there are times in your life when you don't do the things you want to do and you do the very things you wish you wouldn't. It is the same for me. What makes us do that? Well sometimes it is allowing my emotions or passion run over my reason and will. Other times I am tempted by and fall for the deceptions of the devil and his demons.

The peace I enjoy comes precisely from my religion and the gift of the unconditional love of Jesus Christ.

Quote: rxwine

Oops, now you've drawn me in to ask about original sin again. So Human nature was doomed to fail even before it failed? Sounds like a set up. You were made with a weakness and designed to fall into the trap of original sin.

No, please remember that we were made perfect and sinless. Our weakness is because of sin that changed human nature and really the whole world. Original Sin is not a trap, it is the reality of weakness that we experience and the memory that we are called to be something perfect and sinless.

Quote: Evenbob

There's a great old zen story. Two
monks are walking along a road and
they come to a stream. There is a
young lady there in fine clothes that
will ruin them if she wades across.
The order the monks are in forbids
them to touch or talk to women.

Without thinking, the bigger monk
picks up the lady and carries her
across and the monks go on their
way. Later, the one who didn't pick
up the lady is clearly agitated. He
reminds the bigger monk that he
broke a major rule by carrying the
lady across the stream. The bigger
monk says: "I put her down hours
ago, why are you still carrying her."

I've heard the same wonderful story about two Christian monks. I really like that story and the bigger monk represents what the mindset of a Christian should be.

Quote: FrGamble

No, please remember that we were made perfect and sinless. Our weakness is because of sin that changed human nature and really the whole world. Original Sin is not a trap, it is the reality of weakness that we experience and the memory that we are called to be something perfect and sinless.

How can perfect sin? If freewill allows perfect to sin that is imperfect. Therefore we are not created perfect.


Just as if I create an operating system that chose to fail. That is also not a perfect system. It may be definition of something but perfect is perfect, nothing less. Certainly anyone who owned an operating system that chose to make errors would never in a million years call it perfect.

Quote: FrGamble

Simply not true.

I have known SCADS of people
who believe in god and never
think about it. No impact on
their lives, they just take for
granted god exists and that's
that.

Quote:

Religions started because people believe God has revealed Himself

Whatever the reason for the initial
start, it immediately evolved into
a way to control people. Read the
first five chapters of the OT, it's all
about control. Do this or you will
be punished. To live as a society,
uneducated barbarians need a
common ground, and it's religion.
It controls them very nicely, which
is it's intent. When you hear a
confession, you're controlling the
person. He watches what he does
and thinks, because he
knows he has to confess it later.
Control.

At least it used to work, now only
10% go to confession regularly.

Quote: FrGamble

No, please remember that we were made perfect and sinless.

We weren't 'made', the word perfect
has no meaning, and there is no such
thing as sin. Every part of your sentence
is wrong.

Quote: rxwine

How can perfect sin? If freewill allows perfect to sin that is imperfect. Therefore we are not created perfect.


Just as if I create an operating system that chose to fail. That is also not a perfect system. It may be definition of something but perfect is perfect, nothing less. Certainly anyone who owned an operating system that chose to make errors would never in a million years call it perfect.

Perfect has to include free will or it would not be perfect. Sure God could have created us as robots without a choice to love Him and do what is right, but would that really be love or perfect in your mind? For someone to be perfect they cannot be forced to always do the right thing, it has to be a free choice. This means of course that the perfect person can also chose evil and hatred.

Quote: Evenbob

We weren't 'made', the word perfect
has no meaning, and there is no such
thing as sin. Every part of your sentence
is wrong.

If we were not made, or the stuff we are made of is not made, then where did we come from? Are you or are you not a contingent being? Do you have the reason for your existence in yourself? Are you not dependent on your parents who were dependent on theirs and so forth? How could we not be made? Did you are anything you have every seen or experienced just pop into existence without a cause?

Surely perfect has a meaning. Look it up.

You have already admitted many times you understand the concept of sin, you just don't like the word because it has a religious context. However, you know well what it means, we have discussed this many times.

Every part of your posts shows an amazing lack of thought.

Quote: FrGamble

Perfect has to include

The most ridiculous concept in all
of religion. Set the bar so high it
cannot possibly be achieved, then
control people trying to reach it.

It's quite clever in it's evil intent,
I'll give it that.

Quote: Evenbob

The most ridiculous concept in all
of religion. Set the bar so high it
cannot possibly be achieved, then
control people trying to reach it.

It is true that the bar after Original Sin is to high to be achieved, but that was not always so. We were created to be perfect and we couldn't do it on our own God intervened to help us. It isn't control it is help and I'm sorry all you seem to see is some kind of non-existent control. Why do you think help and forgiveness and laws are control?