Simple question?

Facts and religious facts are apparently two different things.

Friday, I saw a rainbow during a rain. One end of it looked close, so walked in that direction. But never came across it.

A religious fact can be the same, except for unproven things like finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow which they state as if it happened along with the rest of the story.

If you can believe Christianity, you can probably believe anything.

Elie Weisel is dead at 87. The most eloquent and
outspoken of the Holocaust survivors. He was
haunted the rest of his life by what he experienced.

'Central to Mr. Wiesel’s work was reconciling the concept of a benevolent God with the evil of the Holocaust. “Usually we say, ‘God is right,’ or ‘God is just’ — even during the Crusades we said that,” he once observed. “But how can you say that now, with one million children dead?”

He hated god for doing nothing, but he
retained his faith. He often admitted he
had major 'problems' with god, and tried
to work them out in prayer.

That's the problem with fictitious deities,
they will always let you down. Poor man
tortured himself for a lifetime over a god
that isn't even there.

Quote: FrGamble

There is no philosophy that points to anything but creation ex-nihilo or at least an unmoved mover.

I understand that which your cult makes up is more credible to you than even reality, but that doesn't make it compelling to everyone, especially not those of us who think about these things.

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This is simple logic and reason. Something cannot create itself, something cannot come from nothing, and nothing moves itself without a cause.

Such logic dictates an infinite regress involving ever more powerful deities creating the lesser ones, or the impossibility of any deity at all. Unless you cut through it and arbitrarily declare "the need for creation ex-nihilo stops here."

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It is utilizing more than just our senses, it is using all of our intellect.

You know all your senses do is send raw data to the brain. You don't see with your eyes, you see with your brain. Therefore even the beginning of knowledge, observation, is done through intellect, not the senses. Ergo your argument falls flatter than a pancake run over by a steamroller.

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Cooking might be a good example of higher knowledge. It is taking what we know of who corn starch molecules work to create something new and delicious that nature itself would never give us.

Go into a building and look around. You'll find nothing in its natural state. If that's what you mean by higher knowledge, then all knowledge is higher knowledge. If all knowledge is "higher" then none is.

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Not only do you not understand eternity or prayer, but you also don't understand saints.

Of course I do: It's the means with which Christianity finished co opting polytheism. I had to be co opted rather than adopted, because the hierarchy wouldn't work without a nominal head god that is to the saint-deities as they are to us bespotted and ulcerous masses. Didn't we just prove if all of one set are equal, there can be no hierarchies?

Now, I'm not saying there's some secret book spelling these methods out somewhere in a vault in Istanbul, or even that it was done consciously that way. But that's the effect if not the intent. Seriously, if a bishop can wield power over a strong Roman emperor, do you think he'd pass up the chance? See Ambrose and Theodosius I.

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However, leaving that to the side for now the true object of prayer is not some superstitious control of God but rather to allow God's will to be done in us.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

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This is true. My question is why do you ignore both logic and the facts and observations we have discovered.

Why do you think ignoring made-up "facts" means ignoring actual observations.

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So you think Pilate would have sent news to Rome to Cesar that it turns out he is not divine that there is a true God and all the other Roman Gods were no longer to be followed?

Have you any idea how much like a Soviet apparatchik you sound? How do you instantly assume your Catholic-colored world view is shared by everyone as unquestionably as you hold it?

Let's unpack:

1) error of fact: Tiberius, the ruling emperor at the time of Jesus, did not claim to be a god and he'd have been laughed out of the throne if he had so claimed. Even Julius Caesar never went that far, contenting himself with claiming direct descent from Venus (itself an audacious claim, which lesser men wouldn't have been able to make).

2) As you constantly keep harping on, the first Christian communities were tiny. That would not be so if the alleged resurrection were known, in your view, because somehow that would make any person accept your cult uncritically. So you're in a double contradiction here.

3) Romans were used to miracles. Everyone was. Romans were also rather devout to their own gods. Had there been a resurrection, Pilate would have wondered whether Jupiter, Minerva, Juno, etc. were responsible. He would not have thought for a second that a mere commoner could be a god.

So if there had been a resurrection I fully expect the governor of a rebellious province would have heard about it, and would have reported it. I'd also expect he'd have left documentation behind, and would have so spread the news we'd see such documentation in nearby areas of the empire.

How dare you Bob? How dare you use the occasion of a good and faithful man's death to promote your fictitious and foolish agenda. I pray you read Elie Weisel's play, "A Trial of God" and realize that this was anything but a poor tortured man. This was a brave and courageous man who truly wrestled with the problem of evil and the nature of God in an honest way. Your post sickens me.

Quote: Evenbob

That's the problem with fictitious deities,
they will always let you down. Poor man
tortured himself for a lifetime over a god
that isn't even there.

It is true that fictitious deities will always let you down as will fictitious ideologies like atheism. However, the true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will never let us down. He shows us that evil, death, and sin will never have the last word. This is something that Mr. Weisel believed his whole life and it is now something that he knows to be true. May you one day realize it as well.

Quote: Nareed

I understand that which your cult makes up is more credible to you than even reality, but that doesn't make it compelling to everyone, especially not those of us who think about these things.

If you really thought about these things you would be compelled to not continue to ignore reality.

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Such logic dictates an infinite regress involving ever more powerful deities creating the lesser ones, or the impossibility of any deity at all. Unless you cut through it and arbitrarily declare "the need for creation ex-nihilo stops here."

Here you stumble upon your answer to why there cannot be an infinite regress of deities. There must be one in order to stop the impossibility of an infinite regress. The need for creation ex-nihilo is grounded in pure logic. You cannot continue to go backwards for infinity if you hope for anything to exist. It is obvious that things exist and therefore there must be something outside of time and space, an all-powerful non-contingent being that began all things. The fact that you continue to ignore this or call it an impossibility is more proof that you are not really thinking about it at all.

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You know all your senses do is send raw data to the brain. You don't see with your eyes, you see with your brain. Therefore even the beginning of knowledge, observation, is done through intellect, not the senses. Ergo your argument falls flatter than a pancake run over by a steamroller.

Observation is quite simple isn't it. Your eyes send signals to your brain which then perceives something. What is our true power is when we utilize our brains to take our observations and come to know something that we cannot perceive. This is higher knowledge. Something learned or gained using our observations and the higher functions of brain to reason using our experiences, logic, philosophy, knowledge of human nature, history, etc. to reach conclusions that simple observation cannot reach.

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Go into a building and look around. You'll find nothing in its natural state. If that's what you mean by higher knowledge, then all knowledge is higher knowledge. If all knowledge is "higher" then none is.

Architecture is indeed a higher knowledge as is art and cooking. As long as you recognize that mere observation and study of the natural world is only a foundation upon which we can truly build and create new things using our higher brain functions.

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Of course I do: It's the means with which Christianity finished co opting polytheism.

Again you show that you not only have no understanding of the saints, but a warped and twisted view as well. Instead of thinking of polytheism you would be much better served by thinking of the tradition of honoring our ancestors and our beloved dead.

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Let's unpack:

1) error of fact: Tiberius, the ruling emperor at the time of Jesus, did not claim to be a god and he'd have been laughed out of the throne if he had so claimed. Even Julius Caesar never went that far, contenting himself with claiming direct descent from Venus (itself an audacious claim, which lesser men wouldn't have been able to make).

Tiberius Julius Ceasar did claim to be divine did he not?

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2) As you constantly keep harping on, the first Christian communities were tiny. That would not be so if the alleged resurrection were known, in your view, because somehow that would make any person accept your cult uncritically. So you're in a double contradiction here.

You seem to think the news of the Resurrection would immediately convert everyone. The faith grew unexplainably quickly but people are stubborn and loth to give up their false gods and power. The faith spread through those who recognized a true God who cared for all people and willingly suffered with and for them and delivered them not from some worldly power, but from our true archenemy of death and meaninglessness. It was only a matter of time until the wealthy and powerful would fall as well to the power of Christ.

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3) Romans were used to miracles. Everyone was. Romans were also rather devout to their own gods. Had there been a resurrection, Pilate would have wondered whether Jupiter, Minerva, Juno, etc. were responsible. He would not have thought for a second that a mere commoner could be a god.

Very true, as I mentioned before news of the Resurrection of Jesus would not of caused mass conversions on the spot. This was unheard of that God was a mere commoner and not some high and mighty. Jesus threw the whole world on its head and showed that everyone has dignity and worth and rights that came not from some pretend divine ruler in Rome but because we were all children of God, rich and poor alike.

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So if there had been a resurrection I fully expect the governor of a rebellious province would have heard about it, and would have reported it. I'd also expect he'd have left documentation behind, and would have so spread the news we'd see such documentation in nearby areas of the empire.

Yeah, I imagine a governor exiled to a rebellious province would be happy to report this news to Rome and document it so that it could be seen even more clearly who was to blame for this new growing religion quickly causing disruptions in synagogues around the region and spreading into Europe. He could have also hidden this news embarrassed at his failure and prayed to his false gods that the whole thing would die off as so many other such claims had done before.

Quote: FrGamble

If you really thought about these things you would be compelled to not continue to ignore reality.

What kind of reality is built on wishful thinking and fantasy?

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Here you stumble upon your answer to why there cannot be an infinite regress of deities. There must be one in order to stop the impossibility of an infinite regress.

And it just so happens to be one of thousands people have made up over the centuries. What an amazing coincidence!

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Observation is quite simple isn't it. Your eyes send signals to your brain which then perceives something. What is our true power is when we utilize our brains to take our observations and come to know something that we cannot perceive.

Yeah, that's called "making shit up." Which in the case of religion, it's remarkably accurate.

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Again you show that you not only have no understanding of the saints, but a warped and twisted view as well.

All based on careful observation and reason, stripped of all supernatural nonsense.

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Instead of thinking of polytheism you would be much better served by thinking of the tradition of honoring our ancestors and our beloved dead.

No, Christianity is very much unlike the benevolent universe embedded in the Egyptian religion.

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Tiberius Julius Ceasar did claim to be divine did he not?

He might have for all I cared. I mean, if he dared to claim the names "Julius Caesar," why not claim to be a god as well. If you find out who he was and how you know about him, I'd be interested to know. All I know is he wasn't a Roman emperor.

The Emperor at the time of Jesus was Tiberius Caesar Divi Augustus Filius Augustus (loosely Tiberius Caesar Augustus Son of the god Augustus). He never claimed to be a god.

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You seem to think the news of the Resurrection would immediately convert everyone.

No, you seem to think that. Which is why you said previously that Pilate failed to report the resurrection for that very reason.

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Yeah, I imagine a governor exiled to a rebellious province would be happy to report this news to Rome and document it so that it could be seen even more clearly who was to blame for this new growing religion quickly causing disruptions in synagogues around the region and spreading into Europe.

Exiled?

BTW, sentences shouldn't run that far. They get tired and lose meaning quickly.

So, let's unpack again:

Governor of a minor (ie poor) province was actually one of the best jobs one of the Equestrian class could aspire to. Important (ie rich) provinces were governed by one of the Senatorial class.

Second, as I keep saying, news of something as momentous as an actual resurrection would spread. Eventually it would make its way to Rome. Pilate would rather be the one to tell the emperor, than to explain later why he hadn't reported it.

Third, no Christians were spreading to Europe, nor causing trouble, days after Jesus died. Pilate knew there were those who could see the future (everyone knew that), but he also knew he couldn't. It's doubtful he'd have consulted an oracle, much less delay the news due to some revelation of his own.

Fourth, we keep coming to the one explanation as to why Pilate did not report any resurrection: it didn't happen.

Quote: FrGamble

This was a brave and courageous man who truly wrestled with the problem of evil and the nature of God in an honest way. Your post sickens me.

What can Mr Wiesel say except god ignored millions of prayers both inside and outside the camps?

Defend your god's actions.

Quote: FrGamble

How dare you Bob? How dare you use the occasion of a good and faithful man's death to promote your fictitious and foolish agenda. I pray you read Elie Weisel's play, "A Trial of God" and realize that this was anything but a poor tortured man. This was a brave and courageous man who truly wrestled with the problem of evil and the nature of God in an honest way. Your post sickens me.

As usual you open your pious mouth so
wide it squeezes your eyes shut to anything
else. I was reading Weisel before you were
born. Here's a passage from 'Night':

“Never shall I forget that smoke. Never shall I forget the little faces of the children, whose bodies I saw turned into wreaths of smoke beneath a silent blue sky. Never shall I forget those flames which consumed my faith forever. Never shall I forget the nocturnal silence which deprived me, for all eternity, of the desire to live. Never shall I forget those moments which murdered my God and my soul and turned my dreams to dust. Never shall I forget these things, even if I am condemned to live as long as God himself. Never... For the first time I felt revolt rise up in me. Why should I bless His name? The Eternal, Lord of the Universe, the All-Powerful and Terrible, was silent. What had I to thank Him for?"

Weisel was in turmoil over gods existence
for all the decades after the war. To the
point that some thought he was an atheist.
He eventually gave up questioning and
just accepted that there is no answer as to
why god let the Holocaust happen.

An atheist who was in a death camp and
survived it would feel the same horror that
Weisel felt. But he would never be tormented
over what god had to do with any of it. He
would blame mankind, not god. Weisel
discovered who his god was in that camp, or
rather, who he wasn't..

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It is true that fictitious deities will always let you down as will fictitious ideologies like atheism. .

You still, after all this time, are clueless
about atheism. It's really amazing, or
are you just feigning ignorance.

"Atheism is not a religion, ideology, belief System, or philosophy. It's a lack of them."

Quote: Nareed

What kind of reality is built on wishful thinking and fantasy?

Yours apparently.

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Yeah, that's called "making shit up." Which in the case of religion, it's remarkably accurate.

I guess you could say art, architecture, music, cooking, philosophy, is in many regards "making shit up". However, the stuff that is made up is beautiful and true.

Quote: rxwine

What can Mr Wiesel say except god ignored millions of prayers both inside and outside the camps?

Defend your god's actions.

Easiest thing in the world: he didn't act, therefore he did nothing wrong.

I've heard this exact argument, much dressed up sometimes, from the religious side.