Simple question?

Quote: Evenbob

Original sin is why
Jesus died, supposedly, yet the concept
is nowhere to be found in the OT, the
Gospels, or from anything Jesus said.
It's a bogus myth invented to reel in
uneducated converts.

It is found throughout the OT and NT. It is found throughout all of human history. It is that yearning we have to be better and the frustration we feel when we struggle to do so. It is the tension between who we are and who we feel called to be. This is as real as it gets and any denial of this reality is just a lie. You can see this frustration from Original Sin played out all over the newspaper every day.

Quote: Nareed

What would it benefit anyone to gain Heaven and lose their soul?

Heaven is the greatest benefit and gain we could every hope for and we have to lose nothing to gain it.

Quote: FrGamble

It so completely and absolutely free, there is nothing as free as the gift of salvation from God.

So Christs dying for the worlds 'sin'
is a done deal, he did it and it's
over. You're now saved, it's a free
gift whether you want it or not, or
even if you never heard of Jesus.

Is that what you're saying?

Quote: FrGamble

Far and above every other animal we succeed with a gift of intelligence and reason that boggles the mind when you look at the evolution of everything else.

I've been thinking long and hard how come it took almost ten thousand years to move from agriculture to systematized science. People now and back then were pretty much the same, except for the extent of their knowledge.

And part of the answer is that the human brain is easily satisfied with any kind of explanation, whether true or not, so long as it can make sense of it. It takes a great deal of effort tot think critically and see that an explanation for a phenomenon must be verified, rather than simply adopted. This defect in the innermost soul of every person takes time and effort and, most importantly, willingness to overcome. Children can come up with satisfactory explanations on their own (I know I did (*)), or readily accept whatever an authority figure tells them. It boggles the mind how long nearly the whole of humanity acted that way...

We have much to be thankful for in the human mind, but much was needed to overcome its inherent limitations as well.

The point is, if Jehovah made the human brain, we should sue for malpractice.

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Again what I meant is that we care for the poor and needy.

I bet you think that's an exclusively human trait, generously provided by a non-existent deity. There are many instances of rats adopting orphaned pups, be they related or not, often to the detriment of the mother rat. Dogs will adopt any stray puppy and kitten given half a chance. Not all dogs, but plenty of them. You should look up primates, too.

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..again where it is survival of the fittest.

I wish people would get over that. "Fittest" doesn't mean strongest, best able to put others down, etc. Animals, and plants, BTW, develop all sorts adaptations. Some cooperate in groups, others don't. Plenty of animals, and plants, even cooperate across species. Surely you've seen birds picking scraps out of a crocodile's mouth, for example.

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Nature itself is a gift from God as is our amazing intelligence to use nature and science to develop medicine and learn about sanitation.

You'd think an all-knowing, all-powerful, "loving" deity would have included a line or two in his holy book like "clean a wound thoroughly with water and soap before bandaging, make sure to remove all debris, dirt, and dead tissue as far inside the wound as you can reach."

Quote: FrGamble

Again you fail to realize that in all these cases God did amazing things to warn and guide the people away from such disaster.

I'm familiar with this.

I just don't think "Do as I tell you and nobody gets hurt" is a particularly loving thing to say.

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It's like someone who says to you over and over that it is not good to run across the street without looking and you continue to ignore him. One day you get run over and your family blames the friend who warned you. It makes no sense. God is not the one committing atrocities He is the one desperately trying to help us avoid the atrocities we seem hell bent to experience.

Your analogies fail because it's not as though Jehovah told Lot's wife "don't look back or I'll turn you into a pillar of salt". Your deity simply said "don't look back." Then he purposefully punished this poor woman by quite horrible means, reminiscent of horror movies like House of Wax, BTW. It's not as though through blind chance and the operation of natural law, she was turned into a pillar of salt.

In your analogy, Jehovah gets so mad at you for not heeding his orders, not advice, that he throws you into oncoming traffic.

Damn right I blame him for horrible murders.

New simple question.

Is there any evidence of justice without gods? We'll call it Karma. We don't need a god because justice or reward is served out.

First off, I would say there is no evidence that doing a good thing automatically returns good to an individual or that doing a bad thing reaps punishment. At least not directly.

However...

Let's look at actions usually defined as "stupidity." Often stupidity not only can be directly attributed to the original action it often occurs immediately to punish the actor. But even when it doesn't punish the actor directly (usually referred to as " you were lucky"), the actor gets a warning (shot across the bow). Failing to observe that first warning, the stupidity usually asserts its lesson eventually, i.e., Justice.

And I think stupidity tends to act upon the perpetrator more directly than any other type of action. Not always, but often, because it is "stupid". Like a robber who wears a shirt with his name on the back.

A kid who chooses to stand close to a wall and throw a hard rubber ball as hard as he can at it, may get a warning the first time, as it narrowly misses his head. Or he may get his reward immediately when it hits him square in the face.

Karma may be a natural law of physics. The more complex actions are harder to correlate. But stupidity is often simple, so easier.

I think I have presented more "evidence" than the Bible usually does. : )

Quote: Nareed

I'm familiar with this.

I just don't think "Do as I tell you and nobody gets hurt" is a particularly loving thing to say.

It would be if it was from your doctor or nutritionist. Anyway, God who knows what is best for us is pleading with us to listen, to use our reason, and follow the truth so that we don't hurt ourselves.

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Your analogies fail because it's not as though Jehovah told Lot's wife "don't look back or I'll turn you into a pillar of salt". Your deity simply said "don't look back."

You interpretation fails because you don't understand analogies and symbolism. Fire and sulfur are reigning down behind them on Sodom and Gommorrah, the angel was very, very clear to all of them don't look back or you too will be swept away. Why? Because looking back is more than a turn of the head. It is a longing for what was being destroyed and what was wrong. This is what destroys Lot's poor wife's life, not being turned into some type of pillar of salt.

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In your analogy, Jehovah gets so mad at you for not heeding his orders, not advice, that he throws you into oncoming traffic.

Why do you write foolish things like this? How do you come up with this? God knows what will happen if you play in traffic and He is begging, pleading, and warning us to stop. How is that throwing someone into traffic? You know very well that the real problem is people who can't take it that anyone, including God, knows what is best for them. They reject the idea that they are not masters of their own fate and if they want to play in traffic they don't care what reason, nature, or God says - they are going to do it their way! How you blame this on God is beyond me.

Quote: Evenbob

So Christs dying for the worlds 'sin'
is a done deal, he did it and it's
over. You're now saved, it's a free
gift whether you want it or not, or
even if you never heard of Jesus.

Is that what you're saying?

As with any free gift you do have to accept it.

Quote: FrGamble

As with any free gift you do have to accept it.

That's not true at all. There are many
gifts that are freely given and all you
have to do is enjoy them. Like all
the libraries Carnegie gave the world
for free. If god really loves the world,
why are there strings attached to this
so called 'gift'. We have a large park
here that was given as a gift to the
city and we're free to enjoy it, no
strings attached.

Your 'free' gift isn't really free at all.
It's like those internet sites where
you're the 1000th visitor and have
won a 'free' gift. But you soon find
there's more to it, it's not really free.

Your free gift from god has some big "if's"
attached and you know it.

Quote: FrGamble

Anyway, God who knows what is best for us is pleading with us to listen, to use our reason, and follow the truth so that we don't hurt ourselves.

Let me rephrase, since you're particularly dense today: I don't think saying "Do as I say or I'll beat you to a bloody pulp" is a particularly loving thing to say.

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It is a longing for what was being destroyed and what was wrong. This is what destroys Lot's poor wife's life, not being turned into some type of pillar of salt.

So as your home is destroyed, if you show any sentiment for it Jehovah will wreak awful vengeance on you.

Look, I already know your god is capricious and psychotic. You don't have to convince me about it. Your job has been done.

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How do you come up with this?

See above.