Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

That is the meaning of the quote I gave. "For the believer no evidence is necessary, for the unbeliever no evidence is possible."

I've always disliked this quote. It tries to
put the non believer in an untenable and
awkward position. It also makes the believer
sound aloof and superior. The believer is oh
so smart, he doesn't doesn't even need
evidence to believe. And the unbeliever
is so dense and hard headed, he could never
be convinced even with evidence. It's the
believer looking down his nose and giving
himself a high five for how brilliant he is.

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It takes a strong desire to not believe in God to convince yourself of atheism. .

Nope, takes no desire and no effort at all.
Think of it like not collecting stamps. How
much desire and effort is involved. Zero.
None. Nada. Not collecting stamps takes
no convincing and no thought. Neither does
atheism. Like most atheists, I woke up one day
and realized I was an a-theist, an atheist. No
desire to be one, it's just a fact of life.

Quote: Nareed

The meaning is quite evident: You have no objective evidence, therefore you have to make belief without evidence a virtue.

See? My point exactly.

Quote:

There is no possible way to argue the matter objectively, as evidence is thrown out the window. You make this claim and, I assume, expect people will want to prove you wrong. No one likes being called "hard-hearted," or to accept an implication that they're deficient in some way.

I would very much like to be proven wrong on this point.

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You have it exactly backwards. It took me ten years. The pressure to conform is intense.

I imagine it does take some time to convince yourself against the pressure to conform, against logic and reason. However, one thing I think I know about you is that when you set your mind (and heart) to something you go for it.

Quote: Evenbob

The believer is oh
so smart, he doesn't doesn't even need
evidence to believe. And the unbeliever
is so dense and hard headed, he could never
be convinced even with evidence. It's the
believer looking down his nose and giving
himself a high five for how brilliant he is.

I think the quote is negative both ways for the exact reasons you mentioned above. It is no superior thing to not desire or need evidence, it is foolishness. It is also the height of folly to be so brainwashed and heart-hardened that you won't even admit the possibility of evidence. This quote is not the believer looking down upon the non-believer it is an objective observer saying why don't they both look at evidence and come to reasonable conclusions that could be rationally debated.

Instead someone says "Just believe you idiot!" and the other says, "There is no God you idiot!" and nothing can be done. Why not seriously look at the evidence of science and history and then use our minds and hearts to come up with reasonable metaphysical, religious, or philosophical beliefs that could be recognized by all people as reasonable and possibly supported by the evidence. The problem for you and Nareed will be that atheism is not a valid statement because it is not supported by evidence or reason or logic or experience. It is a whim and a wish based on a strong desire, for various reasons, that there is no God.

Quote:

Not collecting stamps takes
no convincing and no thought. Neither does
atheism. Like most atheists, I woke up one day
and realized I was an a-theist, an atheist. No
desire to be one, it's just a fact of life.

In a world full of stamps, where 99% of the people you meet are stamp collectors, and where stamp collecting attempts to answer the big and burning questions of life then it does take some effort and stupidity to avoid it or ignore it. In this hypothetical world the fact of life is stamp collecting and the person who just ignores it for no good reason is very strange.

Quote: FrGamble

See? My point exactly.

So we're agreed you have no evidence.

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I would very much like to be proven wrong on this point.

That's the whole point of setting up an argument from intimidation. I'm supposed to swallow your premise that there's something wrong with me for not sharing your belief, so I'll prove you wrong by embracing your belief.

Does it bother you a mere mortal can hold off the all-powerful Jesus at will?

Quote: FrGamble

It is a whim and a wish based on a strong desire, for various reasons, that there is no God.

Here's a whim and a wish without evidence: repeating a nonsense statement many, many times does not make it true.

Let's try this: why don't you pray to your god to appear before me and give me the evidence I need? I'm willing to give you, oh, thirty years time. Surely that ought to be within his all-powerful powers.

I can't wait for your rationalization to "explain" this away.

Quote: Nareed

Here's a whim and a wish without evidence: repeating a nonsense statement many, many times does not make it true.

Let's try this: why don't you pray to your god to appear before me and give me the evidence I need? I'm willing to give you, oh, thirty years time. Surely that ought to be within his all-powerful powers.

I can't wait for your rationalization to "explain" this away.

This is my whole point! If Jesus appeared to you in radiant glory you would ask for something else or explain it away. You can't bring yourself to see that there cannot be a real infinite regress, that modern cosmology points to the idea of the universe having a beginning, that something cannot come from nothing, that there are unexplainable supernatural occurrences, that the historical Jesus of Nazareth changed the world in ways that are not comprehensible to history or natural explanations, that over 99% of people in the world and throughout history have experienced some kind of deity or supernatural, etc. If you cannot deal with what is already before us do you really expect me to take a bet that His appearance to you would actually change your mind?!?

Nevertheless I am a sucker and the EV is off the charts for this best so I will take it. I'll continue to pray for you that you find the Lord God. Just remember God often comes to us in unexpected and humble ways. Pay attention especially to the poor and needy, it is through them that you might very well encounter God.

Quote: FrGamble

If Jesus appeared to you in radiant glory you would ask for something else or explain it away.

It depends on the exact circumstances. I've seen many extraordinary events which have simple explanations.

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You can't bring yourself to see that there cannot be a real infinite regress,

Neither can you.

Look, suppose I grant your misinterpretation of the evidence and assume the universe began at the Big Bang. That doesn't mean that 1) a sentient being was responsible for it, 2) a specific sentient being you call Jehovah was responsible for it, 3) that if a sentient deity existed it was not created by some other deity in some other universe.

And that's just for starters.

Once you inject unproved and untestable hypotheses into the discussion, then it's fair to inject all possible unproved and untestable hypotheses into the argument as well. On the simple end, what proof do you have it was Jehovah who created the universe and not, say, Atum-Ra, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Chronos, or any number of other deities?

On the complex end, what is your proof Jehovah is not a very minor fish in a big pond back wherever he comes from? Maybe that's why he has done such a poor job here.

And again that's just for starters. Maybe I created the universe six trillion years from now one day I was in a nasty mood. Can you prove I won't?

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that there are unexplainable supernatural occurrences,

I suggest you read up on modern neuroscience. You'll find it quite illuminating.

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that the historical Jesus of Nazareth changed the world in ways that are not comprehensible to history or natural explanations,

Oh, please! It can be explained in one word: Constantine.

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Nevertheless I am a sucker and the EV is off the charts for this best so I will take it.

As per my principles, I don't offer sucker bets on purpose. But I do take them when a sucker offers it. So here are the terms: when no god appears to me thirty years from now, I'll expect you to sacrifice an animal to Athena. It can be an animal that's already dead, say a chicken. Just so long as you do the ritual in a temple consecrated to the one true god Athena.

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Just remember God often comes to us in unexpected and humble ways. Pay attention especially to the poor and needy, it is through them that you might very well encounter God.

That's rich: just practice aspects of Christianity and you'll find "God." <roll-eyes>

Of course, you can claim the guy who lounges by the 7-11 downstairs is Jesus finding me. I just "refuse" to see, right?

Quote: Nareed

3) that if a sentient deity existed it was not created by some other deity in some other universe.

Should be completely believable to FrGamble. After all, the Christian god supposedly created an extra class of beings with extra powers as well.

Not so much different than assigning demigods their own private universe to run.

That our Universe is run by a semi-powerful, semi-incompetent flunky fits pretty well with the known Universe. More easily believable if you ask me.

Quote: FrGamble

In a world full of stamps, where 99% of the people you meet are stamp collectors, and where stamp collecting attempts to answer the big and burning questions of life then it does take some effort and stupidity to avoid it or ignore it.

You think 99% of the worlds people
believe in god? You are aware that
Hindu's and Buddhists don't believe
in god, right? Buddha said there is
no evidence to support the god idea.
Hindu's think there are millions of
gods, none of them dominant and none of
them creator gods. I've paid far more attention
to these religions because parts of them
actually make a lot of sense.

This is a primitive way of explaining how the
universe has always been here:

"According to Hinduism, Brahman alone exists; everything (the universe, earth, man, rocks, animals, fire, etc.) is ultimately an illusion (maya). Brahman caused the illusion of creation. There is no beginning or conclusion to creation, only endless repetitions or cycles of creation and destruction."

Hinduism and Buddhism aren't religions as
much as they're ways of trying to explain
what can't be explained. Unlike Christianity,
which claims it can explain everything, and
actually ends up explaining nothing.