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Hey FrGamble!
| December 23rd, 2015 at 2:34:22 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I'm not sure what you mean by bringing up the example of bad popes. While these few Popes surely did not live according to the teachings of Christ they never taught against them or changed them. Disciplines and practices like not having to eat meat on Friday have changed but the fundamental teaching of penance and fasting for example have not.
Revelation is closed and complete after the death of the last Apostle. We await no further revelation. The interpretation of Scripture however and applying it to our modern circumstances continues to be guided by the same Holy Spirit that gave us the books of the Bible in the first place. These interpretations can never go against the written Word of God, it is like a check and balance for anything the Church teaches. If prayer leads to something against Scripture then it is not of God. Mankind does not decide for itself what the rules are and what is moral and just, it is given to us in our own personal conscience, in the Word of God, and the authoritative teaching of the Church. Speaking of conscience which Asimov talks about in the interview, where does he suppose we all get this gift of the conscience. This inner voice that seems to direct us to do right and wrestles with moral decisions we must make it obviously something different than ourselves. It is the gentle whisper of God in our souls that points us in the right direction. Now our conscience can be ignored and can even over time be silenced and ill formed, but the fact we have a conscience is another evidence to the existence of God and some moral order higher than ourselves. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| December 23rd, 2015 at 2:54:57 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
Why is everything a 'gift' to you? Marriage is a gift, children are a gift, communion is a gift, sex is a gift, on and on. A conscience isn't a gift, it's the result of evolution. Calling something a gift when it obviously isn't is a game you play, it implies there's a giver when there obviously is none. Just like you think you see a creation, you think you see gifts that really aren't. Self delusion run amok. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| December 23rd, 2015 at 3:08:52 PM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 |
Everything you described could come from evolution. A strong society is a successful survival strategy. Like I have said before, God is not necessary for this, and a successful survival strategy, no matter what it is, does not prove that god(s) is(are) real. We keep going back to the unprovable assertion that God is real. If we instead assert that God is not real, then it becomes self-evident that mankind has made the rules about what is moral and just. I brought up the bad popes because it is an example of men asserting what is moral and just, which is taken to be the word of god when these assertions come from good popes. The common denominator here is mankind has decided who is a good pope and who is a bad pope, and which of their assertions agree with the word of god. Interpreting scripture and applying it to our modern conditions and situations is another example of this - men are deciding throughout time different and changing ways to interpret the word of god. You say it is guided through prayer, and I again point to cases of bad popes or corrupt leadership which results in prayer-driven interpretation which is in disagreement with other similarly-guided decisions, either forward or backward in time from the points of these decisions. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| December 23rd, 2015 at 8:16:47 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Two quick things. Do you think morality is passed down in the genes to our children? Do you think that consciousness and the extraordinary intelligence human beings have evolved? How are these things possible. It is almost like spiritual or philosophical things would arise out of solely material stuff. Secondly, a successful survival strategy does not logically involve sacrifice, yet we are enamored with it. Every culture and society, all good books and movies, from Harry Potter to Star Wars all involve heroic sacrifice and thinking of the other before oneself and we universally call this good (what a second I think I just came up with my homily idea for tomorrow). Anyway an evolved successful survival strategy would be might is right and kill the weaklings. This is abhorrent to us, why? Because our morality does not come from us. In the risk of upsetting Bob again, it is a gift given to us by God.
And vice-versa is true. I guess you need to ask yourself is there more evidence for the statement "there is no God" than for the statement "there is a God."
There is no instance where a Pope, bad or good, has ever officially taught something in disagreement with the Gospel or the Bible or the consistent teaching of the Apostles and the Magisterium. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| December 23rd, 2015 at 9:01:42 PM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 |
No
Yes
Natural selection
your opinion
Your opinion. Survival strategies have always been about survival of the species, not survival of the individual. Look at all of those things that lay thousands of eggs once and then die.
This is one, but it is not the only one
Probably because it is in conflict with our survival strategy
Opinion. Mine is that it comes from our ancestors, starting with our parents, because for us a strong society that protects eachother is our survival strategy to perpetuate the species.
That isn't the right question. You only need one thing to disprove something, no matter how much evidence there was to support something.
Didn't we already beat the slavery issue to death? Either the bible is against slavery and some bad popes supported it, or the bible is ok with slavery and our current practices disagree with the bible. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| December 23rd, 2015 at 9:32:26 PM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 |
I want to elaborate on this. If morality was passed through our genes, we wouldn't need to teach each-other what is right. If morality was given to us by God, then we would all share the same morality, and we wouldn't need to teach each-other what is right. We can see through history that each religion, culture, and society has different rules, sometimes which change within the same culture through time, which are taught and passed down to their children. If morality were given to us by god, then all cultures, through their belief in various gods through time, should have developed the same moral code. Clearly this is not so. Same thing if it were passes genetically - plus I don't believe that the big changes in morality within a single culture could be explained genetically - it all happens much too quickly. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| December 23rd, 2015 at 9:52:22 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
There is no evidence that any god exists. It's a negative position, like the tooth fairy. If you start from the negative position, you will find evidence for the TF's existence. If you start from the positive position, however, you can find lots of what could be taken as circumstantial evidence. Millions of kids believe in her. They have money under their pillow when they wake up and have no idea how it got there. The concept of the TF is very old. There is hearsay evidence that fairies once existed in folklore. Of course none of that is real evidence of anything. Just like the 'evidence' you have for a god is no real evidence at all. You start from the emotional side of the process, you want god to exist so you grab onto any small thing you can as evidence of his reality. If you could look at it from the middle, with no prejudice and no emotion, you would see you need faith to believe in god, because evidence, real evidence, of him is not there. This is what god rewards you for, having faith in him without evidence. This is explained in the Parker Bros religion board game. If you had read the instructions under the box lid, you would know this. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| December 24th, 2015 at 6:58:31 AM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 | The problem when you buy into the Christian philosophy of original sin and fallen humanity, is that you do not really believe humanity has any capacity for good that's not dependent on a made-up, McGuffin entity. That's how come they need to hijack all history. Why they need to believe any good before Jesus was somehow inspired a by a god nobody even knew about. One gets the feeling that even paragons of Christian virtue would be out shooting heroine, raping women and stealing everything that's not bolted down, but refrain only because a non-existent entity tells them to. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| December 24th, 2015 at 7:16:30 AM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 |
I was going to present something like this as philosophical evidence that belief in god is not necessary, and worship of god is not necessary. Individuals and cultures have and do flourish without being Catholic, and if the reason is still that it is a god-given gift, then there is no need to be Catholic. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| December 24th, 2015 at 9:09:09 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
So is there a material component to consciousness? Can you point to something that makes a material thing start to wiggle flagellum or have a heart beat or create thought?
That is your opinion in regards to what strategy is successful for the survival of the species. It seems to me you could make a strong logical argument that the survival of the species should be more based on the animal world, they have been pretty successful at it until we came around. The problem is we are radical different than the animals and we think differently and we have a morality that doesn't follow the playbook of the survival of the species we see all around us.
You are incorrect. To make a positive truth statement as in regards to if something exists or not you should have evidence. You also have to remember these decisions are made taking everything into account and looking at what is more probable and where does the convergence of evidence point to. Nevertheless, do you have any evidence to disprove the existence of God?
Yes we have and the discussion comes back around again to what we consider as the definition of slavery. The Bible condemns and so does the Church what we would consider racial slavery. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |