Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

I think you are imagining that they are only human constructs.

A good one is money. It only exists and
has value in our minds. We all agree on
it, so it works. You all agree god exists,
so to you he does. We are surrounded
by human constructs that make society
work. Like human rights and morals, all
invented by us so we can live in close
proximity and not kill each other.

This might be like the old question of which came first the chicken or the egg? You think we invented human rights so we can live together, I think human rights were given to us because we were meant to live together.

Quote: FrGamble

This might be like the old question of which came first the chicken or the egg? You think we invented human rights so we can live together, I think human rights were given to us because we were meant to live together.

Don't you see what that does?
It negates all the suffering
endured by countless victims
so we could develop these
rights and live relatively
peacefully. You want to take
away what is rightfully theirs
& give it to some god so your
church can reap the benefits.
You give all the credit to your
church's god, where it doesn't
belong.

You know the phrase, we stand
on the shoulders of giants. We
have all those poor suffering
souls to thank, not some nebulous
god who is just some religions
scapegoat.

Quote: Evenbob

Don't you see what that does?
It negates all the suffering
endured by countless victims
so we could develop these
rights and live relatively
peacefully. You want to take
away what is rightfully theirs
& give it to some god so your
church can reap the benefits.
You give all the credit to your
church's god, where it doesn't
belong.

You know the phrase, we stand
on the shoulders of giants. We
have all those poor suffering
souls to thank, not some nebulous
god who is just some religions
scapegoat.

So you are saying the suffering victims of genocide and slavery were like experiments? Are you saying we were figuring out if we should or shouldn't try to mass exterminate people and their suffering taught us that we shouldn't? I really don't have a clue what you are saying but it just sounds awful.

Quote: FrGamble

So you are saying the suffering victims of genocide and slavery were like experiments?

I'm saying your Church wants to
take the actual suffering of the
people who gave us human
rights, and take their importance
away and give the credit to some
god so it makes your Church look
good.

But god people do that with everything.
We aren't responsible for anything,
it's all god. We didn't evolve, god made
us. None of us have self developed
talent, it's all a 'gift' from god. Xtions
give god credit for every good thing
and he gets no blame at all for the bad
stuff. That's ridiculous and messed
up, It sets the Church up as the faultless
authority, which of course was the intent.

So the suffering of people gave us human rights? That seeems like a strange concept that you need to explain better. Did we not have human rights before the suffering of people? How does suffering create human rights? If they didn't have human rights before their suffering, than in your view does that mean their suffering was not a evil act?

That one is easy.

One group of people didn't like how they were being treated by another group of people, or didn't like how that group was treating some other group of people.

One group was suffering, so someone finally said "you can't do that" and human rights were born.

As for before those rights were established: this is nature. There are no inherent rights.

Quote: FrGamble

Did we not have human rights before the suffering of people?

NO! That's like asking 'did we
have TV before the invention
of TV?' You act like human
rights were lurking around
just waiting to be discovered.

They were invented by people
so they could live in close
proximity to each other and
not fight all the time. This
thing of giving god credit for
everything drives me nuts.
It holds people back, I remember
in the 60's when Cassius Clay
started saying he was the best
fighter of all time. Xtions were
appalled and disgusted, it was
a very big deal. Nobody talked
like that.

You said you would try your best,
and god willing, you might win.
Humility was king. But Clay did
it, he proved he was the best.
Now you can turn on the lowliest
contest on Food Network and
the contestants will say they're
going to win because they're the
best and they deserve it. It's an
attitude that causes people to
strive and excel. Not that timid
attitude, with your hat in your
hand, hoping some god lets
you win.

First of all I think you and I have very different understanding of humility.

However, can you please explain how suffering creates human rights? I still don't understand. Also your TV analogy doesn't seem to make too much sense either. Surely we had theater and stories before television but the TV made a different way of seeing those things. If you are saying human rights come into better focus or drive home the reality and importance of human rights than I would tend to agree. However, the stories we have told for eons before TV and before atrocities like the Holocaust show that there were human rights. They were not created by human suffering, in fact saying there is such a thing as human suffering implies human rights already existed and they were broken. Please explain yourself.

Quote: FrGamble

However, can you please explain how suffering creates human rights? I still don't understand. .

You don't see how generations of
observing humans mistreat each
other would lead to laws being
created to punish such behavior?

Really? Seriously? Of course you
see it, a child would see it. You act
confused because it doesn't fit
into your narrative, which is that
god is responsible for everything.
You must give god credit and thank
god, because that keeps you
dependent on the Church and
the people who work for the Church.