The Insanity of the United States Postal Service

Quote: Mission146

I don't think there's much automatically Conservative about Libertarians because Republicans only pretend to favor small Government. In sum, they may favor reduced spending, but they still would have the Federal Government spend MORE than we would and mainly just disagree with Democrats on what the Federal funds should be spent on.

I'd argue that the LP is a separate party because it's literally a separate party. In general, we think both the Republican and Democratic parties mostly suck, but for different reasons.

To the last bit, many Conservatives/Republicans would claim that we are Liberals because of where we (mostly) stand on social issues. The entire problem with this country is this persistent belief that there must be a strict dichotomy...which is a stupid dichotomy even to the extent it does exist. Getting rid of the Electoral College and greatly curtailing what the Federal Government is in charge of would help a lot with that.

In my limited history, most libertarians who want to be taken seriously join the Republican Party to run for major positions (Gary Johnson, Rand Paul, and Ron Paul, and yes, I know in the most recent election Johnson ran in the libertarian party). You have to join one of the parties if you want a chance of winning any serious election (unless you live in some tiny state where you have a local image like Bernie). I am not saying I agree, I wish there was a multi-party system, I think there could be many more serious candidates, but that is just the reality of the system. If you are a libertarian and you want an even half-serious shot at running for President, you need to be a Republican.

I have many thought about new parties I would like to see, but that would be getting way off topic. For now we just either need to vote Democrat or Republican.

Quote: Mission146

Quote: Gandler

This is from USPS's stance on the issue (from their official site so take it as you will) :
https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/financials/annual-reports/fy2010/ar2010_4_002.htm


Prefunding 50 years is a HUGE deal, I don't think most people realize how unprecedent and absurd it is....

Also, before people blame this on a liberal big spending, pro-regulation conspiracy, this was a Republican bill.... Yes, Republicans, who say "operate like a business" except "price controls, forced service to everyone, prefunding benefits, forced days of service...."


From wiki:
"Between 2007 and 2016, the USPS lost $62.4 billion; the inspector general of the USPS estimated that $54.8 billion of that was due to prefunding retiree benefits"

"According to Bloomberg, prefunding the health benefits of retirees "is a requirement that no other entity, private or public, has to make".[13] Columnist Dan Casey wrote in a July 2014 op-ed in The Roanoke Times that the PAEA is "one of the most insane laws Congress ever enacted".[2] Bill Pascrell, a Democratic House member from New Jersey, said in 2019 that it was rushed through Congress without due consideration, and referred to it as "one of the worst pieces of legislation Congress has passed in a generation".


Again, I don't think most people in this thread realize how expensive prefunding 50-years is.... It is literally unprecedented and borderline economically suicidal to force onto an organization….
And, again, this was all a Republican push, not some liberal conspiracy.....

Well, yeah, I believed you...my point was more along the lines of the fact that they actually have operating losses now. Simply put, they would be losing money even without this aspect, which years 2000-2002 and 2009-2010 just on the link you shared represent. Even moreso in recent years. If they can't at least break even on their direct operating costs, then all this retirement prefunding is doing is speeding up what is inevitable anyway.

Apparently, they haven't even been making all of the payments on the prepayment plan:

https://www.gao.gov/key_issues/us_postal_service_financial_viability/issue_summary#:~:text=USPS%20has%20lost%20%2469%20billion,to%20double%20its%20annual%20revenue.

The point is, if they can't even operate profitably, the question is one of when, not if.

I am not sure if I agree with all of that. Again, they already have a massive hurdle to overcome (universal service everyday, even in massively unprofitable routes and areas ****EDIT before somebody takes me out of context**** everyday meaning the standard 6 days, no I don't think that they are forced to deliver on Sundays....).

They have been losing out to junk mail in recent years, but gaining in other metrics (packages from places like Amazon).
There are many other smaller issues, like the ban on tobacco being shipped via USPS that add more slits into their arteries.

You probably completely disagree, but I think the idea that they offer banking is not a crazy one. I am too lazy to look it up now, but I think at one time (50s or 60s) they were the (or close) to the largest personal bank in America (they did not offer full banking services, but an improvement for many Americans, even if they offered check cashing at a reasonable rate that would be an improvement for many) . This would allow them another form of financial services (they already do money orders) that would not be subject to price controls (and it would benefit Americans who have trouble banking with established banks). If you want the post office to operate like a business, you have to give it a chance to offer other products (or services) that can make money, if you are going to force it to continue doing services that lose money everyday…..

Mail is not going away, but it is changing (less bills, junkmail, and letters and more packages and large objects shipped), so the idea that shipping will be an obsolete industry soon does not hold up, the post office just needs to be able to adapt to compete with other major players. Also, there should be less restrictions on what the postal service can deliver (not to harp on the point, but why can UPS delivers cartons of cigarettes but it is "wrong" for USPS to do the same, yes this is probably one of the tiny issues, but again, one of many slits that cut away at potential services..... and it shows that USPS is expected to operate like a business but has to abide by the red tape of a government agency, and hopefully honest actors on both sides can see how this is not a recipe for success…..)

Also, many exclusive services that the postal service does (certified mail to anywhere in the U.S. for example) they could charge significantly more and people who need to send certified mail would pay it because its still cheaper than Fedex (again yes just one small example, but an example that shows the limitations of price controls on an agency that is expected to operate like a business)....

Quote: Mission146

Hey, nice to see you!

Likewise! =)

Quote: Mission

Have you been doing alright?

Of course not! =)

Quote: Mission

You don't seem like the kind of guy that can stand being cooped up...even less than I can, I would guess, so COVID must be playing hell on you.

Nah, I was an asocial recluse before it was an executive order. The loss of hockey, though, will probably be my undoing.

Whatever. "It is what it is".

Quote: Evenbob

This can't be the real Face. Who
are you really.

Same great Face, less feelings.

Quote:

I am not sure if I agree with all of that. Again, they already have a massive hurdle to overcome (universal service everyday, even in massively unprofitable routes and areas ****EDIT before somebody takes me out of context**** everyday meaning the standard 6 days, no I don't think that they are forced to deliver on Sundays....).

Much of small town America and rural America is a majority of rightwing.

The postal service was designed not to have actual costs of mailing letters from every Hooterville out of the way place where they live saving them money all these years.

I demand postal reparations from rural America for underpaying actual cost.

https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/financials/annual-reports/fy2009/ar_1_004.htm

This is from 2009, but it is another key piece that we have mot mentioned and needs to be considered (and it continues to grow).

Less mail is coming which is true. But, also more addresses. This means more address points need to be serviced with less mail going to them (making even more unprofitable areas).

New addresses get added everyday, everytime a new house gets built in the middle of nowhere, everytime a new housing development pops up, everytime a parcel gets divided into new addresses, etc....

With less mail going out, the fact that there are so many new addresees that need to be serviced stretch USPS even thinner. Just something else people need to keep in mind.

Quote: Gandler

https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/financials/annual-reports/fy2009/ar_1_004.htm

This is from 2009, but it is another key piece that we have mot mentioned and needs to be considered (and it continues to grow).

Less mail is coming which is true. But, also more addresses. This means more address points need to be serviced with less mail going to them (making even more unprofitable areas).

New addresses get added everyday, everytime a new house gets built in the middle of nowhere, everytime a new housing development pops up, everytime a parcel gets divided into new addresses, etc....

With less mail going out, the fact that there are so many new addresees that need to be serviced stretch USPS even thinner. Just something else people need to keep in mind.

There have always been new addresses. Now it is not a big thing because new developments almost always use cluster boxes, which are far easier to service. Far more of these HOAlands than "houses in the middle of nowhere."

Quote: AZDuffman

There have always been new addresses. Now it is not a big thing because new developments almost always use cluster boxes, which are far easier to service. Far more of these HOAlands than "houses in the middle of nowhere."

That is true, but houses in the middle of nowhere still need service, even if they are 100 hundred miles from anyone else, making them huge money pits.... So it does not take many houses in the middle of nowhere for it to start adding up....

For example USPS delivers mail by mule and horse down the Grand Canyon for the like handful of native families that still have permanent addresses in the canyon....
https://facts.usps.com/8-mile-mule-train-delivery/
Even in the 1930s this was laughed at as being antiquated, it still happens to this day....

Quote: Gandler

That is true, but houses in the middle of nowhere still need service, even if they are 100 hundred miles from anyone else, making them huge money pits.... So it does not take many houses in the middle of nowhere for it to start adding up....

For example USPS delivers mail by mule and horse down the Grand Canyon for the like handful of native families that still have permanent addresses in the canyon....
https://facts.usps.com/8-mile-mule-train-delivery/
Even in the 1930s this was laughed at as being antiquated, it still happens to this day....

I've lived in multiple places that have no rural delivery. So everyone uses a PO box. There are fewer and fewer places that are a hundred miles apart in this country and many of the old rural postal addresses have been swallowed up by corporate farms. I think the trade off for getting farmers and ranchers to "live out there" raising crops and livestock is a pretty fair trade for delivering mail.

As far as delivering to native family's at the bottom of Grand Canyon, that was a pretty good deal for the US as well. Millions of acres of everything for delivering a few letters, still a good trade.

There is no delivery in most of the reservations that I've been across, which is >1. Navajo don't have remote delivery, they don't even have electricity or water.

Quote: petroglyph

I've lived in multiple places that have no rural delivery. So everyone uses a PO box. There are fewer and fewer places that are a hundred miles apart in this country and many of the old rural postal addresses have been swallowed up by corporate farms. I think the trade off for getting farmers and ranchers to "live out there" raising crops and livestock is a pretty fair trade for delivering mail.

As far as delivering to native family's at the bottom of Grand Canyon, that was a pretty good deal for the US as well. Millions of acres of everything for delivering a few letters, still a good trade.

There is no delivery in most of the reservations that I've been across, which is >1. Navajo don't have remote delivery, they don't even have electricity or water.

I don't disagree with any of that.

But, you can't say USPS "has to run like a buisness", and then set required service areas, price controls, and days of service...

If you want USPS to be a entilment (which I have no problem with), they deserve Federal assistance..... If you want them to be run like a buisness, they deserve more pricing freedom, the ability to offer other services, and the ability to cut out Saturdays in areas where they lose money..... You can't have both worlds.....

Quote: Gandler

I don't disagree with any of that.

But, you can't say USPS "has to run like a buisness", and then set required service areas, price controls, and days of service...

If you want USPS to be a entilment (which I have no problem with), they deserve Federal assistance..... If you want them to be run like a buisness, they deserve more pricing freedom, the ability to offer other services, and the ability to cut out Saturdays in areas where they lose money..... You can't have both worlds.....

Lots of proposed cuts have been put out there. The outcry on both sides keep them from happening.

The "delivery by mule" makes great propaganda when USPS needs something, so it will be worth it to them.

Quote: Gandler

I don't disagree with any of that.

But, you can't say USPS "has to run like a buisness", and then set required service areas, price controls, and days of service...

If you want USPS to be a entilment (which I have no problem with), they deserve Federal assistance..... If you want them to be run like a buisness, they deserve more pricing freedom, the ability to offer other services, and the ability to cut out Saturdays in areas where they lose money..... You can't have both worlds.....

Oh no, you take me wrong. I like the USPS, have friends that retired from there. I think it works pretty efficiently for what it has to do.

I see the USPS get screwed by admin after admin. From years in Ak. there are many stories of people mailing all the building materials in village where shipping would make small houses cost enormous sums. The rules that the postal service are hampered with are written my the owners of Fed Ex and Brown, and by their campaign contributions. Heck, I've mailed 16 inch truck tires though the postal service from Anchorage to Kodiak Island, it was cheap. There are some funny things that get mailed. I'm sure the postal people hate some of us for the things they have to handle. My biggest complaint with them is they are top heavy with management. The only way to get rid of someone on the crew that won't produce is to upgrade them to management, where they never leave.

I also lived in one town similar to what you mentioned, it was "Wagon Tire" Ore., population 3 at the time. Don't know what's become of the place, but it was pretty small. Enjoyed the jackrabbit elimination project, by .22 rimfire. Good ole days.

The only organization in the entire world that has to fund their retirement 50 years into the future. What a crock.