Science and God

Quote: Evenbob

all these
exceptionally smart people really
believed in god, but wanted to avoid
it, so they called themselves atheists
instead.

I'm saying that a lot of very smart people do not want to believe in God so they will go to great lengths not to or to avoid the question. You might say that many more very smart people do want to believe in God and so they will go to great lengths to believe in Him, and you would be correct.

Just please stop saying there is no evidence, reasons, or facts that would lead one to make a rational decision to believe in God. Not only does that tactic smack of desperation but it is also blatantly not true. Ask the thousands of brilliant theists I could list or just look back at the many times I have shown you evidence that at least could be considered by some to point to the existence of God.

Quote: Evenbob

Difficult for WHO?

Everybody.

You want to declare the whole human race without sin because you had a good day? You know of course that it is not just a few people who can't play by the rules and you also know I'm not only talking about robbery, murder, cheating, or hurting someone else - but Lord knows that the prevalence of any one of those examples of sin would be good enough for anyone to scratch their head and say what is wrong with us?

I'm talking about even the personal standards you set for yourself and yet still fail to live up to them or heroically struggle to reach them. Why is that? As I've said before many times I am very happy you find avoiding such sins easy. I find them easy to avoid too. I reckon just about everyone on this forum finds it easy to avoid the things you mentioned. However, I bet there are things in your life and in all of our lives we wish we could avoid and yet seem tempted to do. I bet there are also things like being more disciplined at work, loving a spouse more, having more patience that we wish we could be better at yet struggle to realize those wishes.

The fact is we are so good and wonderful. The human race is filled with such God given potential. Yet at the same time we can be so evil and mean and squander our potential in pride and selfishness.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm saying that a lot of very smart people do not want to believe in God so they will go to great lengths not to or to avoid the question. .

You really do not understand atheists. Outside
of conversations like this, it never even occurs
to us to think about god. To us, he does not
exist. Period. We don't go thru the day torn
up inside, does he exist or doesn't he. That
would be ludicrous.

Quote: FrGamble

However, I bet there are things in your life and in all of our lives we wish we could avoid and yet seem tempted to do. I bet there are also things like being more disciplined at work, loving a spouse more, having more patience that we wish we could be better at yet struggle to realize those wishes..

Get out the fricking violins. What maudlin crap
is this. I don't know a single Christian that does
any better with any of the stuff you mentioned
than anybody else.

You are one supercalifragilistic god salesman, that's
for sure. Wow! Just believe in Jesus, and all this, and
so much more, can be yours. Been hearing this line
of BS all my life and never once seen it materialize.

Christians live vicariously off the stories of other
Christians, who themselves live off the stories of
other Christians, who live off the fantasy stories
that are blown all out of proportion to reality by
other Christians. And the train keeps movin down
the fantasyland tracks..

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe if A = Atheism.

I agree with Mosca: this makes no sense. Atheism clearly exists.

Quote:

[edit: actually your third premise is also incorrect because you can know of the existence of A without it being scientifically proven.]

A syllogism has two premises and one conclusion. There's no third premise.

Also, "scientifically proven" <> "proved by evidence."

I grant you they're close and related, but not the same.

Quote: FrGamble

Just please stop saying there is no evidence, reasons, or facts that would lead one to make a rational decision to believe in God.

There is no evidence, nor are there any reasons or facts that would lead to a rational decision to believe in any deity at all.

BTW, as the number of deities is very high and most people believe in only one of them, we can say the vast majority of people are atheists with the exception of one belief in one deity (or three deities for some).

Quote:

Ask the thousands of brilliant theists I could list or just look back at the many times I have shown you evidence that at least could be considered by some to point to the existence of God.

You had to go and put yourself in the argument. My personal affection for you precludes the biting remark that would be just perfect here. Thanks a lot! ;)

Quote: FrGamble

I'm saying that a lot of very smart people do not want to believe in God so they will go to great lengths not to or to avoid the question. You might say that many more very smart people do want to believe in God and so they will go to great lengths to believe in Him, and you would be correct.

Just please stop saying there is no evidence, reasons, or facts that would lead one to make a rational decision to believe in God. Not only does that tactic smack of desperation but it is also blatantly not true. Ask the thousands of brilliant theists I could list or just look back at the many times I have shown you evidence that at least could be considered by some to point to the existence of God.

To repeat myself... nah. Forget it. You are determined to intentionally confuse logic and science to buttress your position. I do not understand why you want to do this. In fact, I don't know why you want so badly for science to back up your religion. There's no point to it. Scientists who are Catholics don't try to use science to defend their beliefs, they just say that this is the way it is and they're done with it. There is no legitimate branch of science that is devoted to proving Christianity, unless you want to defend the legitimacy of Creationists and Intelligent Designers (in the face of The Church's acceptance of evolution).

There is so much wrong with your argument that there is not even any place to make a fair start, without wanting to go after other parts with equal vigor. When I pointed out that your whole premise is based on logic rather than observation, you ignored it. When I pointed out that you are postulating a god, in the next breath you denied doing so, and then did it again. When I pointed out that you in one sentence criticized a different branch of Christianity for being unscientific and then in the next sentence defended your own branch of Christianity while ignoring its own unscientific dependence on miracles, you ignored it.

There's really no point. Your very best defense for all of the beauty that is in your heart and soul, and in the hearts and souls of those with whom you worship and share your beliefs, is to say that this is the way it is and it needs no proof. Yet you are determined to chase a lesser, faulty, and ultimately wrong argument, and you insist on doing it by saying that one plus one plus one is six hundred and twelve. It is addition, but it doesn't add the way you are trying to force it to.

Dear Mosca,
I'm truly sorry that I don't seem to be understanding your challenges. I especially don't see the dichotomy between logic and science or really logic and any form of knowledge. My thought is that logic is kind of a universal truth that flows in and through every other field of learning, including those based solely on observation. I also don't see miracles properly understood as against science or logic, but rather evidence of an all-mighty God. I also beg your patience in that I am only one person trying to respond to the profound and the mundane challenges to my faith. Sometimes when you might be a little over my head I move onto something I might understand a little better and forget to attempt to respond to all your good points.

So rather than try to get lost in the weeds again I feel your last post allows me to talk about something I do know a lot about, my own personal feelings and thoughts. To me it is very important that faith and reason go together. God gave us a brain and I don't think it is just for decoration. A faith separate from reason is superstition and false. A reason divorced from faith is lifeless and limited. I don't want or need science to somehow prove my faith, I just don't want anyone to mistakenly use science to think faith is not reasonable. Too often people think religious have nothing but blind faith and the only way to keep faith alive is to ignore science - nothing could be further from the truth in my opinion. Your encouragement to just say my belief is the way it is and that is just the way it is and it needs no evidence is very distasteful for me. It's like saying there is no God and that is just the way it is and it needs no proof - which is what atheists seem to get away with all the time. I'd rather say, "here is what I believe, I can't prove it but I can point to many ways it connects and makes sense of what we know in many other fields of human knowledge such as science, history, the arts, philosophy, and anthropology."

Quote: Nareed

A syllogism has two premises and one conclusion. There's no third premise.

You are correct, sorry about that and thanks again for being so kind.

Quote: FrGamble

I can't prove it but I can point to many ways it connects and makes sense of what we know in many other fields of human knowledge such as science, history, the arts, philosophy, and anthropology."

But it only connects because you believe
in god FIRST! If you're an atheist, none
of it connects to god. It's impossible to
look at all those subjects and get god out
of it if you don't believe in god in the
first place. Don't you see that?

If it were possible, there would be no atheists,
god would be apparent to everybody. But
it's not, far from it. You will never see this
in a million years because you have never
been an atheist. You see everything thru the
'god filter'. I have a sister in law who sees
everything thru the a god filter, she can't see
a lollypop without thanking god for it.

You cannot see this argument from both sides.
You really can't force people to see the world
as you see it, they aren't you. If you want to
believe in god, that's great. If I choose not to,
that's great too.