Gigafactory

Lombard Street had a 27% grade, but after the switchbacks the grade was reduced to 16%.

Quote: reno

I was surprised when MickeyCrimm told a story about how the Toyota Prius battery is ill-equiped for steep mountain roads in Montana. San Francisco is overflowing with Priuses, and a huge number of them are taxi cabs.

Electrics are great for inclines, but there is a lot of distance involved in climbing a mountain. I imagine most of the climbs in the city are not more than 5 minutes before going downhill. A mountain climb is often 20 minutes or more, and while it may flatten out it's generally uphill all the way.

Even 5 minutes sounds on the high side. Bet most are 1-2 minutes at best and that's for the biggest ones.

Quote: reno

By the way, the reason San Francisco has electric busses is because of their performance on the hills. Instant torque, less rollback. Diesel busses just don't do well on those hills.

Back in the 1990s when they first started putting computer control on diesel engines there was a problem here in Pittsburgh. The engines were quitting on the hills. Seems the Germans who designed them had the hills but not the heat in summer, when all of it came together the busses would just stop. They were filling them with sand bags and driving around to replicate and fix the issue.

Quote: Pacomartin

First of all I think the $30,000 Tesla with a 200 mile range is just fodder for speeches. I doubt that any of us will ever see one.

Is this comment intended solely for Tesla, or does it apply to every other car manufacturer as well?

At yesterday's shareholder meeting, Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn appeared on stage with a Leaf with over 200 mile range. He didn't make any commitments as to when this new car would hit the market, but model year 2017 is a realistic assumption.

It's relevant to note that there were no other Nissan models on stage next to him (no Maxima or Altima or Sentra etc.) Was the Leaf's presence a P.R. stunt? Sure. But even so, the point is that they're turning this car into a high profile flagship model representing the entire Nissan brand. So if they delay the 200 mile range model until 2025 or 2030, that delay would be an embarrassment. The fact that they're putting the Leaf in the spotlight indicates that they're serious about selling an affordable long range electric vehicle.

Quote: reno

Is this comment intended solely for Tesla, or does it apply to every other car manufacturer as well?.

To clarify, I did say a $30K electric vehicle that can reliably go 200 miles.

I saw that comment in the article you posted about a 200 mile Nissan Leaf by 2017.
A 24 kWh lithium-ion (Li-ion) battery in a Nissan Leaf is 648 lbs. The model that was on the stage was supposedly a 30 kWh battery which may produce range of up to 120 miles. Remember that a single gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 33.1 kWh.

So a Tesla model S has a 70 kWh or 85 kWh microprocessor controlled, lithium-ion battery , both of which are less energy than 3 gallons of gasoline. Range is specified at 208 to 253 mi battery-only.

Why do you keep mentioning the comparative weight and energy densities of gasoline and batteries?

Even with the high weight and comparative low energy capacity of the batteries, for the amount of energy required to propell the car, the electric vehicles still get up to 120 mpge.

Example - 208 miles divided by the energy of less than 3 gallons of gas is about 70 mpge.

Quote: Dalex64

Why do you keep mentioning the comparative weight and energy densities of gasoline and batteries?

You have to carry the weight of an extra three people to go 75 miles on a full charge.
Whereas an economy car with a 40 liter tank (10.57 gallon) is 66.57 lbs of fuel and @ 35mpg goes 370 miles.

BTW, I am not disputing that electric cars get better mpge. My point is that it does so at extremely high cost. The savings in fuel cost is wiped out by the cost of throwing away the battery at end of life. The money could theoretically spent elsewhere to far greater advantage.

What is the cost to the consumer for disposing of the battery at the end of its life?

I have seen several battery replacement prices, some of them subdidised by the auto manufacturer.

If you would normally trade in your car and get a new one at the time that the battery would need to be replaced, are they charging you to take it away?

Quote: Dalex64

What is the cost to the consumer for disposing of the battery at the end of its life?

I have seen several battery replacement prices, some of them subdidised by the auto manufacturer.

If you would normally trade in your car and get a new one at the time that the battery would need to be replaced, are they charging you to take it away?

Subsidy does not matter, it has to be paid for one way or the other. There are also energy costs. In the end it is what I was taught as a kid, it does not matter where the line-items are in the end you are paying a total cost.

Ok, how much does it cost?

For gas, all we worry about is what we pay at the pump. I've never heard of anyone figuring out what portion of their taxes go to oil company subsidies, and work that into the price of their gas.

If the profits a company makes from selling a truck are used to reduce the cost to another consumer to buy a battery, how do you figure the cost to the consumer?

So far, electricity taxes aren't used to fund the roads directly like gas taxes do.
We can already see that the formulas need to be changed as more efficient vehicles take to the roads.

I even saw that one state was going to tack on a hundred bucks to your registration BECAUSE it was an electric car and they were going to get no money from energy consumption taxes.

In the end it is about direct and indirect costs to the consumer.

On the other hand, cost isn't the only thing considered by many people buying electric or a hybrid.

Nissan has or had a chart showing total environmenal cost for the lifecycle of their Leaf car, I think.

Of course,it is too easy to dismiss anything as industry propoganda, no matter if it is from Nissan, RJ Reynolds, or the NRA.