Sea World's business strategy

Quote: Face

Ha. That's rhetorical, right? Of course the answer is obvious. It's zero.

If it spends zero time on both sides, it must be the all-time shortest film :)

Quote: rxwine

You could probably make an argument that a stable is the same for a horse. I don't know that I buy that horse resting in a stable is worse than at night on an open range. No coyotes. No rain.

If you never let them out of the stable that would be different.

How much time does the film spend on both sides of the issue?

You can glance at a captive whale and see with your own eyes they are not healthy. Their dorsal fin is severely bent.
There is something wrong when a whale kills a trainer on purpose.
I think you are afraid to watch the documentary.

PETA is like MADD. Both started with sensible goals, then the purists got hold of them.

Quote: terapined

You can glance at a captive whale and see with your own eyes they are not healthy. Their dorsal fin is severely bent.
There is something wrong when a whale kills a trainer on purpose.
I think you are afraid to watch the documentary.

Wild animals are unpredictable at times. If you swam with orcas in the wild as much as these people do in their line of work, you'd likely get killed sooner or later.

My parents pet peek-a-poo took my legs out from under me while he was dashing around like a crazed beast in the house. Had I hit my head falling against something I might not be here. He weighed all of 10 lbs. And he is supposedly not a wild animal weighing tons.

And I've said more than once house cats the size of mountain lions would kill ALL their owners sooner or later, not necessarily intentionally. Those are even more unpredictable (IMO)

Quote: TheCesspit

PETA is like MADD. Both started with sensible goals, then the purists got hold of them.

Amen.

Quote: terapined

You can glance at a captive whale and see with your own eyes they are not healthy. Their dorsal fin is severely bent.
There is something wrong when a whale kills a trainer on purpose.
I think you are afraid to watch the documentary.

I won't argue that a whale is better off with us. I don't believe it, and it would take quite an argument to change my mind.

But how much awareness has Sea World generated? Or any zoo for that matter?

I don't like docs like Blackfish for just this reason. I can't really blame them, but I do blame people who see them and accept it as the only truth. That type of thinking leads one down the PETA path, and the feelings of compassion one has winds up being corrupted and, eventually, wasted.

Places like this generate interest and foster knowledge. I very much remember being enthralled the first time I went to an aquarium. I was 8, it was a field trip. And all this wild stuff I had no idea about was suddenly thrust into my world. It was neat, it was cool, it was interesting. And that never left me. As I'm sure you can see from my posting, that stuff is a now a very deep part of who I am. Because some electric eel, some lion fish, some nurse shark was taken from home and plopped into a tank, I now have a deep appreciation for the outdoors. That appreciation has stretched into conservation, has caused me to willingly funnel much time and money in preservation, and has made me a net giver when it comes to environmentalism.

I will not argue that kidnapping creatures doesn't have a cost. But what is ignored in docs like Blackfish is what is obtained in return for that cost. What if no one knew about manatees and flew through the flats at 30 knots all the time? What if no one knew about river otters and just tossed trash in the waterways? Knowledge engenders appreciation, and appreciation results in action. You can't get the knowledge without contact.

This doc ignores that part. It's fine that they left it out. But you must realize they have and seek out the other side before forming an opinion.

SeaWorld devoted a page of rebuttals to the film

http://seaworldcares.com/the-facts/truth-about-blackfish/

Been to SeaWorld a few times in the past (15 years ago?). There was no sense that it was a place hiding abuse of animals. Heck, it was filled with people all the time when I was there.

I am suspicious as anyone when profit may override concern with welfare, but I never got the sense that anything untoward was going on there.

So, like if they are comparing it to mass food plants (hogs or chickens) or puppy mills, it just doesn't resonate with me. There are always problems in any organization, and problem people. That is a problem if it is a systemic problem.

SeaWorld has made some credibility mistakes in fighting this perception. Like the poll thing.

But, PETA seems to have done more of "hit" film. Too much adherence to looking for specific conclusions and ignoring others. I like a good expose' documentary, but I have to agree with SeaWorld this has taken liberties with evidence -- and I don't support that type of investigative reporting.

It just causes me to lose respect for this type of thing when people do something like this with a somewhat loose honor system of their own.

YMMV.

You look at a picture of most animals, wild or captive, they pretty much have the same appearance.
Killer Whales,
That's not the case
Those in captivity look unhealthy just with a glance.
Severely bent dorsal fin.
Those in the wild have a completely straight dorsal fin.

Quote: Face

Places like this generate interest and foster knowledge. I very much remember being enthralled the first time I went to an aquarium. I was 8, it was a field trip. And all this wild stuff I had no idea about was suddenly thrust into my world. It was neat, it was cool, it was interesting. And that never left me. As I'm sure you can see from my posting, that stuff is a now a very deep part of who I am. Because some electric eel, some lion fish, some nurse shark was taken from home and plopped into a tank, I now have a deep appreciation for the outdoors. That appreciation has stretched into conservation, has caused me to willingly funnel much time and money in preservation, and has made me a net giver when it comes to environmentalism.

If not for Sea World we would not have near the dolphin-friendly culture that we do in the USA. If not for that we would still have the problem of dolphin bi-catch when tuna fishing. This is just one aspect. Sea World has surely raised the awareness of marine live and conservation in the USA.

For a parallel, look at old cars in movies and on TV. People complain that "The Dukes of Hazard" destroyed 220 nice, old Chargers. But it probably saved thousands from the crusher. Sea World has the same effect.

Quote: AZDuffman

People complain that "The Dukes of Hazard" destroyed 220 nice, old Chargers. But it probably saved thousands from the crusher.

Did it ever.



While I "General Lee" (pun!) don't like the destruction of classics, it's hard to argue that it wasn't a net positive.

Quote: terapined

You look at a picture of most animals, wild or captive, they pretty much have the same appearance.
Killer Whales,
That's not the case
Those in captivity look unhealthy just with a glance.
Severely bent dorsal fin.
Those in the wild have a completely straight dorsal fin.

Have you ever seen a wild cow? Though not as pronounced as a bison, they are similarly widest at the shoulders. None have enormous bloated stomachs that bow their backs, like those on a farm.

No feral cat is missing it's balls or has the ends of its phalanges chopped off. Tens of thousands of pet stores across the country are full of cats who are.

No wild horse has been gelded or has metal spikes driven through its feet to hold metal plates on.

I could go on, but you get the point.

A fin is a control appendage. An orca's happens to be very tall and thin. It needs support, which it gets by being in the open water. In captivity, it doesn't have that. It doesn't have the pressure of the deep, it doesn't have the pressure of swimming at 30 knots. It's in a constant state of lounging, so it droops. The same has been found in those who have been landlocked. Were you to free Willy, it would go back to straight. A drooping fin is about as severe problem for an orca as "hat hair" was a problem for me during my baseball years.

Far more concerning is the destruction of its social and familial bonds. Being mammals, they already have these structures, and members of the dolphin family are known to be one of the most in depth. In fact, of these high functioning and social creatures, orcas are known to be the most high functioning and social of all. It is even said that they form a culture within their groups, placing them far higher on the emotional chain than even dogs. I don't mean to pick on you, but I do hate bad arguments and the dorsal fin is a bad argument. It seems emotionally based, like "aww, poor droopy, he looks sad". When in reality, it's a complete non issue. The changes in the dorsal fin are no different than the changes in my thighs between winter and summer. They're ripped in winter because hockey, and chill in summer because beer and lounging. But they have no bearing on my overall health and well being. The dorsal fin is the same.

The question then is whether the damage caused, and there is damage caused, is worth the result. It is no secret that I pester and sometimes keep wild animals myself. There are pics and stories aplenty here on DT. My pumpkinseed have lost much of their vibrant color, and have instead turned a very deep green on account of being put in a pond with a black liner. My smallie is not gorging on summer's feast, nor is it building strength by swimming against current and migrating back to the lake, nor is it developing the hunting skills necessary to provide for itself. Both are being subject to me bringing back food and water from several different sources, and that opens them up to exposure to viral hemorrhagic septicemia, from which they would die. All of my fish are young, young enough that 10% of their entire life experience so far will have been spent with me in my home. That's very disruptive. This interference could very well leave them unable to cope with the wild, and upon returning them, they could die.

But look at the result here. The life I have taken from these beings is being transferred into the heart of this kid. This is the future. That is a face of a future adult who may grow up to be a ranger busting poachers, a scientist treating pathogens, a teacher spreading conservation. But even if he winds up a vagabond like his daddy, he'll still exercise conservation, will still pick garbage out of his fishing holes, will still funnel money into preservation, and will still spread that mindset throughout his peers. Whatever damage I cause by my actions, and I do cause real damage, is paid for in full and then some by the lessons it imbues into my son. That's a net positive.

The question is if Sea World and its ilk do the same. That's a question you must answer yourself, but it takes more than a one sided drama doc and a sad visual of a droopy fin to do so. A quick wiki shows that out of >50,000 orcas on the planet, only 45 are in captivity around the world. Of those 45, 34 of them were captive born. I ain't good at the arithmetics, but that looks like 11 were chillin' with their homies and got kidnapped. Are those 11 cases of damage and sadness worth the result? Is it worth the wonder of child and adult alike, worth the awareness our actions have on our oceans, worth the appreciation for forms of life great and small? I kind of think it is. I don't think it's "neat" or "cool" that some mama whale was ripped from her family, of course not. But a net positive? Yeah. I'd agree with that.

Don't be a PETA. It's fine for me to allow emotion to overrule logic as I strut to the upcoming Leafs game. It's fine for you to allow emotion to overrule logic as you float along to the next Dead concert. But in life, the head rules. Blackfish is all heart.

Quote: Face

The question is if Sea World and its ilk do the same. That's a question you must answer yourself, but it takes more than a one sided drama doc and a sad visual of a droopy fin to do so. A quick wiki shows that out of >50,000 orcas on the planet, only 45 are in captivity around the world. Of those 45, 34 of them were captive born. I ain't good at the arithmetics, but that looks like 11 were chillin' with their homies and got kidnapped. Are those 11 cases of damage and sadness worth the result?

There are 11 surviving captive orcas now. How many over the decades of marine park exhibits?

I've no sides in this controversy, but I'm a stickler for accuracy in statistics.