Who are happier -- Christians or Atheists?

Quote: FrGamble

You are the one starting with an untrue premise.

I know. I did it on purpose. "Dead people resurrect" is a false premise.

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I start with the empty tomb, the inability of anyone to produce evidence that Jesus was indeed still dead, the conviction of the Apostles and disciples, their eyewitness accounts, the spread of the faith in the midst of persecution, etc. All these things lead to the logical conclusion that Jesus indeed has Risen!

I will not repeat what I said about independent evidence.

In ancient and classical times, all sorts of people claimed all sorts of impossible miracles. All sorts of people believed in all sorts of impossible miracles, too. Your arguments proves a band of Israelites did the same as everyone else at the time.

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You are the only one starting with a conclusion: Dead people don't resurrect. Ever. What lead you to that conclusion?

To begin with, the billions upon billions of people who have died since people existed and the lack of a single corroborated case of even one of them resurrecting. To be sure there have been cases of catatonia, comma and even cardiac arrest which were confused with death. But that's different, A living person getting up is not resurrection.

If that's not enough, there is the knowledge of the effects death has on the body. Cellular processes cease, and the cells begin to decay almost at once. Without special measures, like immersion in saline, lowering the temperature, nutrient baths and so on, cells and tissues quickly become completely dead organic matter in hours. Neural connections dissolve quickly, too. again, without special measures, a dead person's brain becomes irreversibly damaged in minutes. A living person's brain deprived of oxygen for a few minutes will experience irreversible damage as well.

If you wish to claim Jesus didn't die on the cross, but only nearly did, then eventually got up and walked about for a few days, I'd be willing to believe it. If there were corroborating evidence. But that's not your claim at all.

Now, dead Jesus resurrected how long after death? hours, days? Unless he got back up within minutes of being taken off the cross, he'd have been a brain-dead husk without any muscle function, blood circulation and assorted putrid bits and pieces scattered throughout his body, plus some leftover decomposed food, fecal matter and urine.

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I think I sense Mr. Blair stirring as well, maybe he will rise from the dead and help you to see the problem with your logical thinking.

Do you know which Mr. Blair I'm referencing?

Quote: Nareed

To begin with, the billions upon billions of people who have died since people existed and the lack of a single corroborated case of even one of them resurrecting.

But one cat...

Cat rises on 5th day

Lots of people have been pronounced dead and
have gotten up days later. Hundreds if not
thousands. Just a short time ago in Peru a
woman was said to have died by her doctor and
3 days later woke up at her own funeral. Did
god resurrect her to? No, and nobody thought
that.

It was no different in Jesus time. They had to see
people they thought dead waking up a few days
later. That's what they would have thought of
Jesus. If he had told them god did it, most would
think he was nuts.

Mosca, can you please remove that picture? I find it very disturbing.

As to the story, the most likely explanation, of course, is that this cat is the Goddess Bastet reborn, brought back to life by the Goddess Ist (Isis). We must worship Her in the manner in which She is accustomed. We must abolish all the false religions humanity has been following for the past 2,000 years. Clearly the Goddess has returned to lead Her subjects to a new era of Harmony and Prosperity.

Or maybe two schmoes can't tell the difference between shallow breathing and no breathing in a cat. But, really, how likely is that?

Quote: Nareed

Clearly the Goddess has returned to lead Her subjects to a new era of Harmony and Prosperity.

My thoughts exactly. I have a dozen cats
and am picking one to worship very soon.
The fattest most friendly one, although
the big male thinks he's god anyway.

Quote: Nareed

Mosca, can you please remove that picture? I find it very disturbing.

As to the story, the most likely explanation, of course, is that this cat is the Goddess Bastet reborn, brought back to life by the Goddess Ist (Isis). We must worship Her in the manner in which She is accustomed. We must abolish all the false religions humanity has been following for the past 2,000 years. Clearly the Goddess has returned to lead Her subjects to a new era of Harmony and Prosperity.

Or maybe two schmoes can't tell the difference between shallow breathing and no breathing in a cat. But, really, how likely is that?

Sure, Nareed, no problem.

I think it's hard to look at, until you understand that the owner loves the cat regardless; then I think the additional knowledge makes the picture beautiful. But, I removed it out of respect.

Quote: Mosca

Sure, Nareed, no problem.

Thank you.

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I think it's hard to look at, until you understand that the owner loves the cat regardless; then I think the additional knowledge makes the picture beautiful. But, I removed it out of respect.

Of course he loves the One True Goddess ;)

Seriously, I have a hard time looking at disfiguring injuries, even in animals, regardless of any considerations. I can too easily imagine how much it hurts, how bad it is for the person or animal injured, and all the rest. I'm better off not looking.

Rights and wrongs can be determined without God. We are quite capable as human beings to determine what right and wrong is and we go through that battle every day over some pretty tough issues:

- medical marijuana: good or bad?
- assisted suicide for the terminally ill?
- abortion and circumstances where it should and shouldn't be allowed?
- the death penalty
- the 2000 US election

and so on and so forth. There are plenty of things on the borderline and we use the Supreme Courts of our land to determine the finality of what is legal and just. These things determine the legalistic bounds of or morals and guide us into a socialistic sense of what is right and wrong. None of these are determined with God.

And I will go with most of the folks that the God of the Old Testament was pretty arbitrary in his teachings. Certainly the tales in the Old Testament teach great lessons. I always struggle with the conumdrum of why Jesus 2000 years ago but not earlier? Anyway, it seems like Jesus came along because God realized that He didn't get it right with the old testament, or that society was advancing too quickly, or that it would take God in the flesh to make things right at the time, I suppose. Or perhaps it's all malarky, crap made up by 12 disciples bent on bucking Caesar's hold on the world. Certainly, Jesus died on the cross. The Resurrection and the forgiveness of sins is the cornerstone of Christianity. Without Jesus dying for our sins and the ensuing resurrection, there is no Christianity.

Nonetheless that Christianity certainly shaped Western Society. Its advances and the spread of disease destroyed the advanced central American civilizations, none of which heard of Jesus. The same is true of the native Indians, destroyed by European disease. Yet Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam still remained strong, and while these religions did not carry the same demand to evangelize and do good (whatever the moralistic meaning of 'good' was at the time), they persist and are strong to this day. Christians have unique demands placed upon them that don't exist in other religions, and it causes Western Society to have a different code of morals, of what is right and wrong, then other religions do. It doesn't mean that we are right. It just means that it is right under our belief system, which heavily stems from a Christian God.

Quote: Nareed

I know. I did it on purpose. "Dead people resurrect" is a false premise.

Your premise included the word often. Your premise of "Dead people never resurrect. Ever." is again not only false but beginning with a conclusion.

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I will not repeat what I said about independent evidence.

In ancient and classical times, all sorts of people claimed all sorts of impossible miracles. All sorts of people believed in all sorts of impossible miracles, too. Your arguments proves a band of Israelites did the same as everyone else at the time.

No, unlike everyone else at the time this band of Israelites with their impossible claim of the Resurrection changed the world. These spurious ancient miracles from anyone other than Jesus are forgotten in a fog of falseness and time. However, Jesus' uniquely holds true. Why is that? You can repeat over and over that it is just the same as what lots of people did or claimed, but you are overlooking reality and history. Why did Jesus stick? What made his miracles more than folklore and false claims? Why were the Romans and Jewish leaders so helpless to prove the story of Jesus false and only another one of the many attempts to claim a Messiah? Why could they not produce a body or find credible testimony to counter that of Jesus' followers? These are questions you need to wrestle with.

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To begin with, the billions upon billions of people who have died since people existed and the lack of a single corroborated case of even one of them resurrecting. To be sure there have been cases of catatonia, comma and even cardiac arrest which were confused with death. But that's different, A living person getting up is not resurrection.

Oh so now is where the sheer number of examples leads to proof. Interesting you would go there. Anyway, we are talking about a miracle here, see below.

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If that's not enough, there is the knowledge of the effects death has on the body.

The resurrection would be a miracle and something that would not only reverse the effects of death but transform our lowly bodies into glorious ones that no longer suffer decay, sickness, age, etc.

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If you wish to claim Jesus didn't die on the cross, but only nearly did, then eventually got up and walked about for a few days, I'd be willing to believe it. If there were corroborating evidence. But that's not your claim at all.

This is one of the modern arguments to explain the resurrection, but it is not at all my claim. A half-dead Jesus recovering from mortal wounds and close to breathing His last would not have sent the disciples from hiding in the upper room to spread the good news that Jesus never really died, but is now on death's doorstep. They exploded from the Upper Room on fire with a message of ultimate conviction. Jesus was dead and we have seen Him risen in glory! There is no stopping us now - He has conquered sin and death - and so will we. Do your worst to try to stop us but now that we know for certain He has been raised, He is God, and His is the message of hope and love all the world needs to hear.

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Do you know which Mr. Blair I'm referencing?

My guess is J. Anthony Blair

Quote: Evenbob

Even if it was true, I'm not sure what he was
trying to prove by doing it. It seems like a
rather cheap trick, one that any logical person
at the time would explain by saying he was
never really dead, or someone died in his
place. Nobody would jump right to the
conclusion that he rose from the dead, that
would be too far fetched to be even considered.

Yet we're supposed to believe that everywhere
he went people just bought his story and were
'amazed'. No, the amazing part would be that
he was believed at all. Even today, when we
could have verifiable proof that someone died,
if they came back to life we would think it a
fluke, not a divine event.

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But that's not a logical conclusion, why do
you think it is. It's as logical as seeing a
person I know in the store, then later
seeing him mowing his lawn, and
thinking he must have teleported from
the store to his house because I don't know
how he got there. That's not logical at
all. Just like assuming Jesus rose from
the dead isn't logical.

It is amazing anyone believed that He was truly risen. You are correct in the order of how things would go. "So you have seen Jesus huh? Well He must have never died." "Nope, the Romans made sure of that by double checking and spearing Him with a lance where blood and water flowed from His side proof that not only was He dead, but dead for some time." "Well then it was someone who looked like Jesus?" "Nope, He appeared to us His friends and disciples we knew it was Him, we touched Him, it was Him." "Well then, it was a hallucination." "Nope, there were hundreds of witnesses, the news is spreading all over, He is Risen." Such an extraordinary thing to gain any traction not only with the disciples but with the people around at that time would need to have behind it amazing proof so much so that any attempt to explain this phenomenon in a more natural way would have been debunked. Especially, since it was obviously in the interest of both the Romans and Jewish leaders of the time to throw all their weight behind stopping this news to spread or be believed.

To use your teleporting example, think about what it would logically take to have you even entertain the idea that your neighbor teleported from the store to his home to mow the grass. You would need to see Him disappear and then immediately get a call from your wife that your neighbor was mowing the grass and even then you would have more questions. You might want to see him and make sure it was really him, etc. Nobody is going to believe someone teleports or resurrects without pretty convincing evidence.