Who are happier -- Christians or Atheists?

February 3rd, 2015 at 7:22:06 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
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I don't think that article at all proves that religion causes more problems than it solves. It shows that there is a growing population that doesn't need religion to teach them morality.

I also think it is possible that religion doesn't cause the intolerance and other stuff, but it is the other way around - those people are drawn to religion. In that way, it is a good thing - the behavior of those people might be even worse if someone else wasn't teaching them right from wrong.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
February 3rd, 2015 at 7:27:49 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Dalex64
I- those people are drawn to religion. In that way, it is a good thing - the behavior of those people might be even worse if someone else wasn't teaching them right from wrong.


An interesting idea. 'Broken' people are drawn to
religion because they're afraid that without it,
they will do bad things. Those who don't need
god or religion are capable of leading rich and
fulfilling lives without being hampered by the
constraints of an organization. Makes sense.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 3rd, 2015 at 7:29:26 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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I'm always happy to hear people are living by the golden rule. Evenbob I think you might want to cool your jets a little bit. There is no proof in that op-ed piece that religion causes more problems then it solves nor was the word guilt even used once.

I thought the part when the atheist mom was worried about, "what happens to their morality if their faith in God disappears..." If their faith in God crumbles then they would be left with the type of secular morality that this piece is trying to extol. Her fears are well founded as anyone can show empathy when it is reciprocal. However, when it involves real sacrifice and treating another as they would like to be treated because that is the right thing, not because it will benefit me, that is when the rubber hits the road. Like Debbie in the article I worry about what happens when God is taken out of the picture in those cases.
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February 3rd, 2015 at 10:12:45 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: FrGamble
Like Debbie in the article I worry about what happens when God is taken out of the picture in those cases.


People use god as a crutch. They have no reason
not to misbehave, except god won't like it and
that scares them. Take the crutch away from them
and they aren't grounded anymore, they had no
solid base in their upbringing except god will
'punish' you if you do wrong. Secular morality
doesn't use threats to keep people in line, they know
it comes naturally to humans, no god the punisher
is needed.

The golden rule is not Christian in origin. It can
be traced back to Confucius. It also appears
prominently in many religions, including
Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism,
Zoroastrianism, and the rest of the world's
major religions. It's human nature, even those
godless atheists are able to tap into that.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 4th, 2015 at 4:11:08 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: Evenbob
An interesting idea. 'Broken' people are drawn to
religion because they're afraid that without it,
they will do bad things. Those who don't need
god or religion are capable of leading rich and
fulfilling lives without being hampered by the
constraints of an organization. Makes sense.


I am not suggesting that fear motivates them to join a religion. I think it is a desire for structure and order.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
February 4th, 2015 at 8:25:53 AM permalink
Mosca
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Why Don’t We Practice What We Preach? A Meta-Analytic Review of Religious Racism

I think Dalex64 makes a valid point, that we don't know which causes which. However, I do think that these studies disprove any suggestion that atheists and agnostics are amoral.
February 4th, 2015 at 8:46:20 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Mosca
However, I do think that these studies disprove any suggestion that atheists and agnostics are amoral.


That's part of what I call the Christian apologist's exaggerations.

Consider this: humanity has existed for thousands of years. Throughout time there arose, developed and often fell hundreds or thousands of civilizations. Just about every one of these had some kind of moral code, or more than one, which were practiced about as consistently as today. Many of these civilizations had an official moral code, or a body of law. Hammurabi's Code, the 12 Tables of Roman Law, etc.

Some of these moral codes were based on religion, like the Egyptian's Book of the Dead, or the Israelites Old Testament some were not, like the ethics in Stoicism, Epicureanism, Aristotle's ethics, etc. The point is moral codes and morality predate Christianity for millennia, and this is documented. very likely prehistoric societies had some kind of moral codes, too, but we can't say for certain because they left no records behind.

To claim morality is exclusive to Christianity, or to the Judeo-Christian god through scripture alone, is not a mere exaggeration, but arrogance bordering on hubris.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
February 4th, 2015 at 11:16:41 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Nareed
That's part of what I call the Christian apologist's exaggerations.
.


Christians seem to think that not only
can't atheists prosper, be happy and
fulfilled, and lead goal oriented lives,
they believe we can barely make it thru
the day without massive depression and
urges to knock over a gas station.

What they're doing is projecting what they
fear about themselves onto us. They not
only need a supernatural authority to keep
them in line, they need him obsessively.
They feel as though they would run amok
in the streets if their faith disappeared. So
thank god their IS a god for them.

What's interesting is, prisons are full of people
who have 'religion'. According to what Christians
say, prisons should have a high population of
the godless, and the opposite is true. Atheists are
better able to stay on the right side of the law,
it seems. If I was a Christian this would be deeply
disturbing as it flies in the face of everything they
have been taught about atheists.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 4th, 2015 at 9:23:34 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Nareed

Some of these moral codes were based on religion, like the Egyptian's Book of the Dead, or the Israelites Old Testament some were not, like the ethics in Stoicism, Epicureanism, Aristotle's ethics, etc.


All moral codes have been based on a belief in God or some higher power than ourselves. Be that Zeus, Reason, the Logos, or the Trinity. You can't ground a moral code on yourself, their needs to be something above you - a higher purpose, a goal, a true objective good that cannot change based on how you feel or what you need.

I have no problem admitting that atheists can be amazing people. However, it is not their atheism that makes them so. I also recognize that Christians can be real jerks at times, duplicitous, mean, and greedy. However, it is not their Christianity that makes them so.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
February 4th, 2015 at 11:24:56 PM permalink
Mosca
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 22
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Quote: FrGamble
All moral codes have been based on a belief in God or some higher power than ourselves. Be that Zeus, Reason, the Logos, or the Trinity. You can't ground a moral code on yourself, their needs to be something above you - a higher purpose, a goal, a true objective good that cannot change based on how you feel or what you need.

I have no problem admitting that atheists can be amazing people. However, it is not their atheism that makes them so. I also recognize that Christians can be real jerks at times, duplicitous, mean, and greedy. However, it is not their Christianity that makes them so.


Wait just one second. You CANNOT on one hand make the argument that there is a Christian God, and on the other hand equate that God's moral power with that of reason. Because if you do so, then you agree with the position of those who are arguing against you. The whole point of reasoning that one does the right thing because it is the right thing to do, that is the essence of godlessness.

I expect circuitous logic from you, FrG, because that is the essence of arguing for Christianity, but never did I expect such a sloppy argument.