Is Satan Real

Quote: Nareed

No, we cease to be. We are no longer alive. We're, you know, dead.
.

Our body and ego cease to be, the
spirit that is who we really are never
dies. It's the thing masters in the East
sit in meditation about for 30 years,
getting in touch with their spiritual
nature. Zen masters are said to be
living in both worlds at the same time,
this one and the spiritual one. Very
rare and hard to do.

Quote: Nareed

I'm going to use a phrase I don't care for: it is what it is.

These are all facts: we're here, we posses a rational faculty, we are spiritual beings. This is all so, beyond any doubt, whether or not there is a creator.

So what need is there for one? Living is amazing.

You are missing some facts. If it is a fact that we are here, it is also a fact that we had a cause and a creator. Things don't just pop into being. The universe and all matter, space, and time had a beginning, a cause, and a creator.

So while it is a fact that there is a creator the question you posed remains: So what need is there for one? We can live our lives without ever acknowledging or caring that there is a creator. We can go around repeating, "it is what it is." This seems strange to me and like you it is a phrase and an attitude I don't care for.

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Yes. But this was also the century that saw other imperial powers quietly and peaceably give up their empires. It was also the century that saw liberty spread from a handful of states in Europe and North America to the every corner of the world. Not to mention the XX Century saw more technological development than all previous human history combined (and the rate of change is increasing).

Consider this: the average person on Earth today has better nutrition and health than the kings of Europe did a century earlier. This person also has access to devices, entertainment and transportation that no money in the world could have bought in the XIX Century.

The main question is are people happier now then they were in centuries past? Yes we are more well fed and our entertainment is the best, but does this translate into peace and happiness? Is cheating, lying, and stealing going down or up? Are people nicer to one other? These are the important things that you need to ask to determine if progress is being made.

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Yes, in the same sense that we are a combination of genes and gene expression, or that we are a collection of cells and the result of cellular processes. Genes themselves, cells themselves, do nothing. But gene expression is a property of genes and cellular processes of the cells. The spirit is a part and property of the body.

It is quite clear to see that gene expressions come from genes and cellular processes come from cells. Can you tell me how or why you feel that the spirit is a part and property of the body? They seem exactly opposite more like oil and water than cause and effect.

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"How" is not relevant. Oh, it's an important question and no doubt we'll learn a great deal else trying to answer it. But not knowing how a car is made makes cars no less real. Not knowing how consciousness works doesn't make it less real. See above: it is what it is.

True the car is real if you don't bother to know anything about it, but it won't run very well if you fill the gas tank with maple syrup.

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I find it easier to believe we developed as we evolved because of random chance, than we were created by a non-existent entity.

Yeah, that is a pretty easy choice. What would you find easier to believe: we were created by random chance or we were created by an existent entity?

Quote: FrGamble

You are missing some facts. If it is a fact that we are here, it is also a fact that we had a cause and a creator. Things don't just pop into being. The universe and all matter, space, and time had a beginning, a cause, and a creator.

You can't keep presenting opinion as fact,
it won't fly. Of course your whole argument
depends on these 'facts', so you are desperate
for them to be true. But you can't prove they
are, so quit referring to them as facts.

The idea that something that has begun to exist has a cause, aka a creator is not my opinion. It is a fact.

Quote: FrGamble

The idea that something that has begun to exist has a cause, aka a creator is not my opinion. It is a fact.

You can't prove the universe had a beginning,
and you know it. It's just a theory, an opinion.
I think it's been here forever, we're just stuck
in time see finite-ness in everything. That it's
always been here and always will be here makes
a lot more sense then being created by some
figment of mans imagination. It means limitless
possibilities and is comforting beyond imagination.
It just feels right..

Quote: Evenbob

You can't prove the universe had a beginning,
and you know it. It's just a theory, an opinion.

You sound like a creationist or someone a while ago who still believed the world was flat.

Quote: FrGamble

You sound like a creationist or someone a while ago who still believed the world was flat.

I sound like a realist and a pragmatist,
actually.

Quote: FrGamble

You are missing some facts.

Wishes aren't facts.

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If it is a fact that we are here, it is also a fact that we had a cause and a creator.

You cannot explore the question of whether the universe requires a creator starting with the premise "The universe requires a creator."

I'm not impressed by circular logic, loaded premises or intellectual intimidation. You'll have to do better than that.

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The main question is are people happier now then they were in centuries past?

Can you possibly tell? Can you measure happiness quantitatively?

What I can tell you is people today over much of the world have greater opportunities for the pursuit of happiness than at any previous time.

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Can you tell me how or why you feel that the spirit is a part and property of the body?

Because brain conditions affect the mind and the spirit in noticeable ways. if the spirit were some other-wordly component of a person, then a traumatic brain injury could never cause a shift in personality, chronic malnutrition would have no impact on intellectual development, and any of a myriad other hard-evidence indicators you care to come up with.

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Yeah, that is a pretty easy choice. What would you find easier to believe: we were created by random chance or we were created by an existent entity?

If the universe was created by a fictional character from a myth, I vote we elect Bugs Bunny for the post. He'd make a whimsical, fun universe (this is a rhetorical slap in the face, delivered with as much intellectual fore as possible; and I rather like Bugs Bunny).

Quote: Nareed

You cannot explore the question of whether the universe requires a creator starting with the premise "The universe requires a creator."

I'm not impressed by circular logic, loaded premises or intellectual intimidation. You'll have to do better than that.

All things that begin to exist have a cause. The universe has begun to exist. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

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Can you possibly tell? Can you measure happiness quantitatively?

What I can tell you is people today over much of the world have greater opportunities for the pursuit of happiness than at any previous time.

There are probably ways we use to get a sense of the happiness of a society. What is the crime levels? Is there drug use? What is the suicide rate?

Even your point about opportunities for the pursuit of happiness is shallow if you continue to define happiness in regards to wealth and good food.

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Because brain conditions affect the mind and the spirit in noticeable ways. if the spirit were some other-wordly component of a person, then a traumatic brain injury could never cause a shift in personality, chronic malnutrition would have no impact on intellectual development, and any of a myriad other hard-evidence indicators you care to come up with.

Very well said. Now let me ask you, do you think someone's spirit or soul is wrapped up completely in their personality or intellect?

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If the universe was created by a fictional character from a myth, I vote we elect Bugs Bunny for the post. He'd make a whimsical, fun universe (this is a rhetorical slap in the face, delivered with as much intellectual fore as possible; and I rather like Bugs Bunny).

It is comical how you cannot even bear to entertain the idea that the universe was created by anything other than random forces, when everything seems to point to random forces as being the fictional bugs bunny of creation.

Quote: FrGamble

All things that begin to exist have a cause.

We don't know that.

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The universe has begun to exist.

We certainly don't know that.

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Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Therefore we cannot conclude that.

Don't you get tired of rehashing these arguments?

There is no evidence of any kind of god, less so of a particular god. When you have any, I'm willing to reopen the whole mess. Find some godly toolmarks and prove them to be so. Until then, I won't respond to these wishful-thinking fantasies any more.

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There are probably ways we use to get a sense of the happiness of a society. What is the crime levels? Is there drug use? What is the suicide rate?

So the happiness of Freedonia can be stated to be....? What? Three rainbows and seven unicorns per person per year?

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Even your point about opportunities for the pursuit of happiness is shallow if you continue to define happiness in regards to wealth and good food.

Wealth is what affords people the time to pursue happiness. You won't be very happy if you spend all your time trying to feed yourself. When you have the leisure of free time to be spent on your interests, on creation, on your values, that's when you can make your own happiness.