Should the state be allowed to force a cancer treatment?

Quote: petroglyph

Which chemo treatments are cures? I wasn't aware they had discovered a cure yet.

These are 5 year survival rates for pancreatic cancer;http://www.cancer.org/cancer/pancreaticcancer/overviewguide/pancreatic-cancer-overview-survival-rates

What do you define as a cure? My mother lived about 40 years after Non-Hodgkin's diagnosis and chemo.

Some people just live longer and then die. I suppose that wouldn't be a cure, but the quality of life after treatment matters mostly. I suppose if your quality of life is bad enough, survival for any period of time is not necessarily a gain.

Quote: AZDuffman

I would choose a quick one to the back of the head, yes.

That can be a tough shot to make if you have to do it yourself. A double tap by a close friend does seem about the least painful, we should all have at least one friend that is that close.

All politics aside I sometimes start to tear up a little when I hear this song http://youtu.be/Gw7gNf_9njs.

In all the various scenarios mentioned in this thread the one thing overall is that we are supposed to be a country based on individual rights, private party, lack of compulsion by the state, lack of any state mandated religious beliefs or practices, but along come doctors and suddenly we are required to accept medicine as an official religion and medical practitioners as some sort of interventionist.

Quote: Fleastiff

In all the various scenarios mentioned in this thread the one thing overall is that we are supposed to be a country based on individual rights, private party, lack of compulsion by the state, lack of any state mandated religious beliefs or practices, but along come doctors and suddenly we are required to accept medicine as an official religion and medical practitioners as some sort of interventionist.

Hey, what about them lawyers? Don't they defend the state too while others oppose it.

Hired guns. It's not a moral thing to be a hired gun. It's a job.

Quote: petroglyph

Which chemo treatments are cures? I wasn't aware they had discovered a cure yet.

These are 5 year survival rates for pancreatic cancer;http://www.cancer.org/cancer/pancreaticcancer/overviewguide/pancreatic-cancer-overview-survival-rates

'Cure' or at least 'put cancer into remission'.

Yep, pancreatic cancer is pretty vicious and survival rates are low... in that case it's often a decision on how you want to live. Some people choose to take chemo, which intersperses a period of being very sick and ill with an equal period of feeling okay, and able to function enough to finish of living. hise few extra months/weeks can be worth the weeks of illness for some.

Others, not so much. But using woo-fuelled cures can make it even worse.

Quote: Fleastiff

In all the various scenarios mentioned in this thread the one thing overall is that we are supposed to be a country based on individual rights, private party, lack of compulsion by the state, lack of any state mandated religious beliefs or practices, but along come doctors and suddenly we are required to accept medicine as an official religion and medical practitioners as some sort of interventionist.

The medical community gets it's power from religion. "Thou shalt not kill" can get a very wide interpretation sometimes. Assisted suicide, abortion, right to die are all opposed by most religions. Easy step from there to just bring in quality of life as also needing intervention.

Quote: rxwine

What do you define as a cure? My mother lived about 40 years after Non-Hodgkin's diagnosis and chemo.

Some people just live longer and then die. I suppose that wouldn't be a cure, but the quality of life after treatment matters mostly. I suppose if your quality of life is bad enough, survival for any period of time is not necessarily a gain.

That's great to hear rx. It seems some C's are more easily treated then others. The blood cancers seem pretty treatable these days. Dr. Warburg received the Nobel prize for discovering the cause of cancer in 1931. I just thought we would have progressed further. I am admittedly bitter about the topic. My father died from chemo. [chemical pneumonia] I also attend a men's cancer support group once per month. It is a fascinating subject to me and no matter how much I read the more it is I find that I don't know.

I'm currently 13 months post diagnosis for SCC, BOT [metastatic] with unknown primary. Definitely an emotional roller coaster. Eleven months post radical neck resection, still hurts like hell. I'm doing the naturalpathic treatment, out of pocket.

Things just are what they are. Insurance would pay for chemo/radiation but so far I am still glad I declined it?

Quote: petroglyph

That can be a tough shot to make if you have to do it yourself. A double tap by a close friend does seem about the least painful, we should all have at least one friend that is that close.

I just figure that is what was meant by "a rapid infusion of lead."

Indeed a tough shot. My grandfather did it. I do not know if I could. At the least I would not want to leave the mess for someone to clean up.

Priest said the church relaxed the rules on suicide. Maybe the Padre can comment there?

Quote: kenarman

The medical community gets it's power from religion. "Thou shalt not kill" can get a very wide interpretation sometimes. Assisted suicide, abortion, right to die are all opposed by most religions. Easy step from there to just bring in quality of life as also needing intervention.

Quality of life is indeed a huge factor in any of these end of life decisions. I am actually getting a talk together right now for our seniors about some of these end of life issues. One of the big misconceptions out there is the Church requires you to always resuscitate or keep someone alive at all costs. This is not the case at all. In fact I think the Church's teaching leans very heavily in the direction of individual choice in regards to these end of life decisions and in this particular case about chemo.

The key is understanding ordinary means and extraordinary means of care. Ordinary care are things like feeding, bathing, giving water, keeping warm, etc. These cannot be licitly denied someone unless other medical reasons exist that would make for example food harmful to the patient. Extraordinary things are machines that keep us alive like ventilators or aggressive chemotherapy or experimental drugs. All of these things are licit and can be rightly chosen by the patient, but none are morally required.

I also just wanted to say that the Church has not relaxed its teaching on suicide or assisted suicide. It is a grave and mortal sin. However, the Church has long since held that when a decision is made to kill oneself the normal requirements for mortal sin and usually not present. The mental and physical anguish that lead one to that point very often mitigate the culpability of the act. One more thing about this in the context of end of life decisions. "Pulling the plug" is not assisted suicide, nor is taking pain medicine that could as an unwanted side effect hasten death.

Quote: FrGamble

]I also just wanted to say that the Church has not relaxed its teaching on suicide or assisted suicide. It is a grave and mortal sin. However, the Church has long since held that when a decision is made to kill oneself the normal requirements for mortal sin and usually not present. The mental and physical anguish that lead one to that point very often mitigate the culpability of the act. One more thing about this in the context of end of life decisions. "Pulling the plug" is not assisted suicide, nor is taking pain medicine that could as an unwanted side effect hasten death.

Sorry if the way I wrote that came off wrong. What actually happened was at the after-funeral the priest was at the table and he said that the church by then (1998) had recognized or decided that if a situation drove someone to suicide was a "sickness" and the person would have the sin forgiven on the other side.

This was kind of important because growing up we were always taught that suicide was the worst of all sins, worst way to break #6, and it got you the worst room there was to get in hell. The guy in question went to Mass an hour early to pray (and to be fair, to get the best parking space) until the end and prayed nightly. Lived the good Catholic life. He just knew the end was near so why wait? Lost his wife months before and his daughter was likely to last the year.

Still, I had never heard the church took the new position.