Evolution and the Pope

November 7th, 2014 at 5:27:04 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
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Quote: Nareed
Because we don't know.

And because there are discontinuities in nature which we were blissfully unaware of for ages.

Consider matter. It seems solid and massive. The reasonable supposition is that it's made up of solid and massive things. Instead we found matter consists largely of empty space, and it's not solid at all. It is massive, but in a way we didn't expect. 99.999% or so of the mass concentrates in 0.0001% of the atom, at the nucleus. That's completely contrary to all reasonable suppositions reached prior to any actual evidence.


Okay, so there are scientific discontinuities and new discoveries all the time, that is part of science's role as it discovers new things we know more and more. I really like your example about matter, it is astounding what we now know. However I asked you why you couldn't say that we know for example that something can't come from nothing or that everything that begins to exist has a cause. These are really not scientific questions, but philosophical ones, after all how can you observe or learn anything about nothing or test something before it exists. Philosophical answers are not like scientific ones that change or develop, they are either right or proven wrong. The idea that A cannot be the same as not-A is not something that will ever change, we know it with certainty. We won't discover that this idea is ever more true or less true, it is simply a logical truth that will not change. We do ourselves a disservice when we fail to acknowledge that anything can be truly known. It might be true that some scientific truths might never be known with certitude, however we should acknowledge that many philosophical truths are known with certainty to be true.

[edit: in re-reading this post I am uncomfortable with the notion that philosophical answers don't change or develop. There are too many instances where that is exactly what happens. However, my main point remains valid that science can show the prevailing thought was dead wrong and that would be considered progress in our understanding. In philosophy or theology when an idea is proved incorrect by science or other different ideas then it does not deepen our understanding of the topic but rather forces us to begin again in our thinking about things.]
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
November 7th, 2014 at 5:58:39 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25131
Quote: FrGamble
however we should acknowledge that many philosophical truths are known with certainty to be true.


You love to sneak these gems in there. Name
a few of these truths; heck, name just one. You can't.

I googled philosophical truths there are lists of
them. Every single one is an opinion, not a truth.
Each one was flawed, it can't be any other way.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
November 7th, 2014 at 6:24:02 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
I think I listed three truths in my post here is a brief list I am only giving myself 10 minutes to do:
- everything that begins to exist has a cause
- something cannot come from nothing
- not-A is not the same as A
- a triangle has three sides
- I exist
- God exists
- Jesus Christ is true God and true man
- torture of an innocent person is wrong
- the ends do not justify the means
- if A=B and B=C, then A=C
- a bachelor is not married
- If you take a risk, you may lose
- Every philosophical truth is flawed or an opinion, it can't be any other way.

(I added the last two especially for you Bob, and now I'm at 10 minutes)
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
November 7th, 2014 at 7:54:22 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25131
Quote: FrGamble

- a triangle has three sides

- Jesus Christ is true God and true man


I'll just use these two, the rest are examples
of them. So a triangle having 3 sides and
Jesus is true god are philosophical truths?
What's philosophical about a triangle, and
it's just your opinion about Jesus.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
November 7th, 2014 at 8:07:45 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Okay I admit I threw in the Jesus statement of faith just to stir things up a bit. However, the triangle can only have three sides is an example of something that can never change, no scientific discoveries will ever change the fact that a triangle has three sides. It is an idea that is not dependent on scientific proof and is immune to any attempts to disprove it by the use of science. It is a philosophical objective truth in the same vein as 'torture of an innocent person is wrong'.

Remember I am trying to show that: first, you can truly know something is true with certitude. I think you will agree with me that you can know most of those statements are true and will always be true. Secondly, I am demonstrating that there are truths that do not depend on scientific experiments or tests or knowledge. For example, all you need is a brain with reason to figure out that something cannot come from nothing.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
November 7th, 2014 at 8:14:53 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25131
Quote: FrGamble
with reason to figure out that something cannot come from nothing.


But if it was always here, it didn't come from
nothing. It just 'is'. It didn't start, it didn't
begin, it has no beginning and no end. It's
not even a mystery, it just is. Why complicate
it with religion and our silly ego's. Just accept
it. Or don't, it doesn't matter. You're still a
part of it and it's not exactly going anywhere.

It makes life seem glorious and boring at the
same time. Religion makes life seem stressful,
how can you relax if god is judging your every
thought.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
November 7th, 2014 at 9:06:31 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
But if it was always here, it didn't come from
nothing. It just 'is'. It didn't start, it didn't
begin, it has no beginning and no end.


Where did you get this idea? Why do you think this? Is there anything in your experience that leads you to believe this?

Quote:
It makes life seem glorious and boring at the
same time. Religion makes life seem stressful,
how can you relax if god is judging your every
thought.


This sounds awfully like your opinion. For me religion gives me peace that God's judgment is love and mercy. I've often thought how stressful life would be without a religion of forgiveness.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
November 8th, 2014 at 12:15:36 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25131
Quote: FrGamble
Where did you get this idea? Why do you think this? .


I know you're not joking. Padre, you really
need to educate yourself on writings
outside of your religion. I know they frown
on that, but it will do you some good. It
will strengthen your beliefs, or it won't,
what's the difference..


Quote: FrGamble
This sounds awfully like your opinion. For me religion gives me peace that God's judgment is love and mercy.


This says far more about you than it does
about god. You need love and mercy, so
that's what your god gives you. Of course
it's my opinion, how else..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
November 8th, 2014 at 5:25:02 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
I have studied lots of writings from outside my religion and it is not frowned upon at all, but maybe I need to read more from other sources to be more well rounded and understanding. However, in not answering my question you kind of answered it. Your belief in an eternal universe is a pure act of faith - not in God, but in an eternal universe that has always been and will always be. Hey, who am I to judge, I just want you to own that and not keep bashing others who make acts of faith in say revelation for example.

Our beliefs do say a lot about us and I do need love and mercy - we all do whether you admit it or not.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
November 8th, 2014 at 11:35:57 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25131
Quote: FrGamble
Your belief in an eternal universe is a pure act of faith .


It's not a belief as much as it's something
I just instinctively know. It answers every
question, without the question even having
to be asked.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.