The FrG Project (split from Truck Resto Rant)

Looking good Face, you deserve that fresh perch and nothing better in my opinion!

Hey I have a quick question. I have a priest friend in Beaumont, Texas and he loves cars. He told me that he bought an old car of some type a few years ago and used it as a project for the youth of his parish to work on renovating it. He knows about cars and would teach them what to do and they supervise them doing it. He said it was fun and some of the kids really got into it. A type of club kind of formed and after close to three years they had a nice car they could be proud of. They took some rides with it and then sold it with the monies going back to the youth group to buy another junked up car and start again.
I love reading about what you are doing and I think what my priest friend did is a great idea. The problem is I don't know much at all about cars. Is this something I could take on and learn along with the kids as a fun hobby? How much skill and know how is needed? Any other advice you might have?

Quote: FrGamble

Looking good Face, you deserve that fresh perch and nothing better in my opinion!

Thanks, as always =)

Quote: FrGamble

Is this something I could take on and learn along with the kids as a fun hobby? How much skill and know how is needed? Any other advice you might have?

This is totally dependent on what you mean exactly by "renovating".

First thing to remember, and I say this without an iota of my usual exaggerated outrage, northern cars are a complete disaster (ok, maybe a bit of exaggerated outrage ;)) But really, they are generally a terrific pain because of the rust. I just came back from the Sheriff's and I checked out the '70 Challenger he picked up where it spent its life in the Nevada desert. It is miles better than my '89 Honda. And while the floor pan, trunk pan, and a bit of the wheel wells have been replaced (almost a given for these cars no matter its home), the remainder of any bit of that 44yr old car is in better condition than any bit of my 10yr old truck. No lie, I spent not even a minute checking out the big block, instead spending 35min easy in pure wonder looking for the rust and not finding it. Your boy from Texas, right out of the box, has a way easier go than anyone north of the Mason-Dixon. I'm thinking New England for you, so keep that in mind.

It also matters a ton, again, by what you mean by "renovating". Are you talking a complete resto job, like an old hot rod from the frame up? Are you talking buying a late model wreck and rebuilding what was smashed? Are you talking just simple fixes like installing a brake system or replacing shocks and struts? Are you talking taking a grocery getter Civic and bolting a bunch of go-fast parts and pretend to be in Tokyo Drift? Depending on your plan, you could be looking at using 6 different tools over the course of tens of hours and requires little more than the ability to read an instruction manual. Others involve specialized tools over the course of several months and require actual talent and skill.

If you have an idea, let's hear it. If not, then let's keep talking =)

Of course, continuing on, your questions of "can you learn along" and "how much skill is needed" are also dependent on that same question - "whatcha doin'?" I dunno if my threads give the impression that I'm experienced and / or skilled, but I really don't know much. Simple stuff like changing fluids, diagnostics, replacing easy stuff like suspension components, maybe. But the more complicated stuff like wiring, engine swaps, clutch replacements? I didn't have a clue. Every bit of the actual work of the racing thread, other than changing tires and brakes, were tasks completed with no prior experience. That whole project was little more than desire guided by Google. Seriously.

I have more, probably a lot more, but I'll wait until you reply. There's just too many options to cover without having an idea of where you are headed.

Thanks Face as we talk about it and I receive your advice and that of the forum I reckon my vision for this idea will come into better focus. My friend and his success come to my mind every time I read your posts about cars, racing, or resto trucks. I would love to give it a try. Definitely I would not be trying to make a speedster, so it is more of rebuilding and refurbishing a car/truck that needs lots of work. I kind of believe that if something is worth doing it is worth overdoing. Therefore I kind of like the idea of a complete resto job. However maybe fixing a wreck would be good too. I'm pretty sure google would guide us through this too and maybe I can find some parishioners with expertise that can help as well. Ultimately one of the most important goals for the kids would be a sense of accomplishment. They could see a broken down car transformed by their hard work into something good (insert parallel to the Gospel here).

I'm thinking high school and college age young men and women for this project. Now budget is a little bit of concern and so is space needed for this idea. I have a small garage, but what would we need size wise? How about those tools of which you spoke, what would we need there? How expensive is a broken, old, or wrecked car for a project like this?

Quote: FrGamble

Thanks Face as we talk about it and I receive your advice and that of the forum I reckon my vision for this idea will come into better focus. My friend and his success come to my mind every time I read your posts about cars, racing, or resto trucks. I would love to give it a try. Definitely I would not be trying to make a speedster, so it is more of rebuilding and refurbishing a car/truck that needs lots of work. I kind of believe that if something is worth doing it is worth overdoing. Therefore I kind of like the idea of a complete resto job. However maybe fixing a wreck would be good too. I'm pretty sure google would guide us through this too and maybe I can find some parishioners with expertise that can help as well. Ultimately one of the most important goals for the kids would be a sense of accomplishment. They could see a broken down car transformed by their hard work into something good (insert parallel to the Gospel here).

I'm thinking high school and college age young men and women for this project. Now budget is a little bit of concern and so is space needed for this idea. I have a small garage, but what would we need size wise? How about those tools of which you spoke, what would we need there? How expensive is a broken, old, or wrecked car for a project like this?

Still need more info, but this is a start. I'll just keep talking =)

First I'd say to know your audience. For example, teens are typically frazzled on hype and hormones. Thinking of some of the teens I know, if I were to put them on a dent pulling and body work project, they'd be disinterested in a half hour and be so damaged by the mind numbing monotony of the job they'd likely never pick up a tool again lol. Teens (I'm thinking 14-16) want "cool" and they need a quick return on their effort. In their case, I'd go the Fast and Furious route. Bolt on body kits and go fast parts, something that could be done in a week with no talent and little skill, that gives a very obvious visual and/or aural presentation of accomplishment. On the other hand, if you had late teen / early 20's who are looking for a career path or otherwise have an interest in cars, or just dig the long haul of a big project, I'd go the more technical, useful tasks like engine diagnostics, body repair, systems maintenance and rebuilding. Know your audience.

You seem to be headed towards a large project, as either fixing a wreck or resto'ing a mess is very involved and labor intensive. They have a lot of similarities, but have their own traits.

A wreck, assuming it's late model, is good because everything is clean. I told this story before, but completely rebuilding the brakes on one corner of my race car takes 12 minutes because everything's been broken free and is clean. The exact same job on Ash's rusty Buick took 2 and a half hours, every bit of it because of rust and parts being seized. Rust is just a complete disaster. Fixing a late model wreck will save you a bunch of that sort of "wasted time". Of course, having to deal with it can be spun into experience and character building. Again, know your audience. Are they gonna rise to the challenge, or are they going to be disheartened by it? I personally loathe it, but I have a feeling a lot of parables could be made between Jesus' struggles and rust ;)

A wreck also gives you confidence that the car works if not for the damage. There are less surprises. If the front is mashed, for example, you know the cooling system doesn't work and you can see why. The radiator is punctured, the hoses are torn, it's obvious. Replace the radiator, connect the hoses, and it will work. Easy peasy. On a resto, you have no idea. If the cooling system is wonky, is it the rad? Is it the thermostat? Is it the water pump? Is something clogged? Is it just not bled right? Is it nothing but a faulty gauge? You have no idea, and you have to diagnose, repair, and test every bit of the system until you figure it out. Which scenario are your kids gonna tolerate? Know your audience.

Of course, a wreck isn't necessarily cheap. Every bit of the rest of the car has value in parts, and being late model, they'll be in demand. New cars are also, well... boring. So the finished project might be "cool" in that they did it, but the actual finished product will likely not be. Maybe if you got an IROC Z or something, but it's hard to get excited over a Chevy Cobalt ;)

A resto, on the other hand, can be picked up for pennies. Even the Sheriff's new '70 Challenger, a $40,000+ car once completed and already containing $10,000 in parts, was only $2,500. You obviously need not pick up such a rare and valuable piece, and could get something for $50 - $500. Had I known then what I know now, I could've done my whole race car for half of what I spent, including cost of the car. We're talking wreck to race for less than $2k.

The expense on resto's comes with the amount of things needing replacement. If you go very old, the price rises due to rarity. If you go very classic, the price rises due to demand. You're going to need a lot of parts for this type of project, so you want to pick something common. For example, a Buick GNX and Monte SS are damn near identical and likely share many common parts. But you might find people willing to pay YOU to take their Monte junk off their hands while someone won't part with a simple GNX badge for less than $100.





While you mull that over, I'll offer some stuff I know.

You've seen my garage. Even with my little sub-compact that ain't but 11' long by 4.5' wide, it was cramped. It wasn't bad, but I was always banging into toolboxes and having to cram myself into tight spaces. You pack 6 kids in there and it's gonna be mayhem. Of course, every wall of mine is taken up by tool boxes and racks and tables; if it was just wide open, it would have been a lot better. Comfortably, you want a good 3 or 4 feet between any point of the car and any wall, maybe a bit more if you're working as a crew.

Tools depend, but there's a bunch that are a definite. For basic mechanic stuff, you're gonna want a ratchet and socket set(s). I typically use a 3/8th drive but do have 1/2" for big stuff. Size of sockets for basic stuff should mostly be covered by any set you get, which usually spans 10mm to 17mm. But if you're doing a whole car, you'll likely have to purchase individual sockets for the odd sizes you'll run into (typically an 8mm, 19mm, and 32mmn for a Honda, for example). You'll also want a selection of extensions, at least a 2" and an 8" so you can reach everything.

Standard pliers, wrenches, and vice grips are handy if not necessary. Needle nose are a must once you start pulling cotter pins. A 16oz hammer for encouragement, a rubber mallet for gentle encouragement, and a 3lb steel sledge for problem solving ;)

An assortment of screwdrivers is necessary. Phillips and flathead are a given. I also like to keep an exceedingly long flathead for prying, as well as a tiny flat head for gentle prying. The tiny ones are a must for retainer pins, unless you want to buy a largely pointless specialized tool for them.



You'll also need a selection of bits for your drivers. There's a ton of different types of Phillips heads and you'll want the right one when you really have to crank on a rusted screw. Use the wrong one and it's gonna strip (which reminds me - you need a power drill and drill bits =p) You might also run into Torx bolts. If you don't have the right bit, that bolt's not coming out.



On the power side of things, an air compressor is a godsend. Your compressor is going to be dependent on your work. General mechanic work requires high pressure / low volume. While most air tools are rated to 90psi, you will find times when you want or need to crank it much higher. A small, portable type compressor should give you enough psi (I'd do at least 120 if not more), and since mechanic stuff it usually a "hit it and quit it" type of work, you won't run out of capacity. If in addition you plan to do body work, which requires a lot of constant use when sanding and/or painting, you're going to want to upgrade to a much larger tank capacity. I personally have a floor mounted unit, 60 gal, min/max pressure from 125-155psi. It covers everything from stubborn lug nuts (usually =p) to long haul painting. $485, self installed.

Some handy air tools include an impact (COMPLETELY necessary), an air ratchet (hardly use it, handy but too loud), a die grinder (great for small area rough work), and an air chisel (see air ratchet). You can usually buy all these as a set that'll run you around $200. Additionally, you'll want a DA sander (great for large area rough work) for about $60, plus sanding disks ($10 for 25).

You'll want an angle grinder with both grinding disks and cutting wheels. You can get it and several disks and wheels for less than a hundo.

You'll want a bench vise. I get away with a small, 4.5" unit, $60.

That there will cover almost the entire car as far as removing and installing parts and systems.

Further tools and equipment depends on how deep you plan to go. For replacing an engine, I need a 19mm socket, a 32mm socket, a pair of vice grips, needle nose, and that about it. In and out with 5 tools, zero talent, a bit of skill. But if I were to rebuild an engine, then I'd need torque wrenches and special ring pliers and micrometers and all sorts of specialized junk, not to mention a CNC machine for milling the heads and seating valves and etc and so forth. We're talking thousands of dollars and a good chunk of skill. Body work is sort of the same thing. Just taking care of scratches amounts to little more than a bit of sandpaper, your hand, a roll of tape, a razor, and a paint gun ($60). A tick of talent and a bit of skill and it'll look like new. But if you have dents and holes and rusted out panels, you're talking dent pullers and spot welders and MIG welders and straight line sanders... all of which require very high levels of both talent and skill.

I don't intend to scare you off this project lol. In reality, a great deal of work can be accomplished by little more than desire paired with Google. After all, is rebuilding your own engine a make or break event? Isn't just plopping in a new powerplant just as good? I know I was quite happy when I did it, and if you wait, I'll be able to tell you how it is to rebuild one (my next planned Racing project). I think the only real hang up you may have is the finished body work / painting stage. To get panels perfectly smooth and paint liquid gloss takes a lot of talent and skill, and you just can't get that off Google. But if you can at least get the panels in, is having to send out for finishing a failure? I don't think so.

Sorry for the essay. I'll stop now and await a reply =)

Okay Face you haven't completely scared me off yet. I think I've got a bead on a place where we could work with plenty of space. Unfortunately I don't know my audience because I haven't really advertised or started recruiting yet. Alot of youth ministry is throwing lots of spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. If nobody turns out to like this idea the worst thing that happens is that I try my hand at working on cars by my lonesome. I reckon there should be at least a few adults who if the kids bail, might be willing to help.

Thanks so much for the tool information, I'm gong to check around and see what we have here at Church and what my family has that I might be able to use. However I don't want to get the cart before the horse. How can I go about starting to look at prices for wrecks or restos in the area?

It totally depends what you're looking for, price range, distance you're willing to go, etc.

Ebay is pretty good if you want something somewhat valuable. You can find a lot of good project cars without fearing a total mess. Of course, they're likely more expensive, and could be anywhere from Juneau to Jacksonville, Bangor to Berkeley. I usually check Ebay to window shop and/or get ideas, and then buy from somewhere a little closer and cheaper.

Craigslist is pretty good for seeing what's in your general area. When looking for my race car, probably 12 of the 14 cars I checked including the one I finally bought were based off CL leads. You just have to sort of think of what you're looking for. For example, if I was looking for another race car, CL would be good. Since CL shows local, any race car would be local and there would be a better chance it's either built to the rules my track uses, or built to rules of a track I'm familiar with. I wouldn't want a race car from North Carolina, because the rules are completely different and foreign to me. If on the other hand I wanted to do a classic car, I'm not going to want a local one that's been subject to who knows how many WNY winters.

Facebook can be good, but it takes some time to get into the proper groups. Many car guys have pages or groups they make to bring other car guys in the area together. Through racing, I joined the "716MISFITS" page, and it's all local guys into the Honda ricer scene. Everyone's always trading parts, selling cars, and it's a good resource to find what I need, being a sort of "Honda guy". There are certainly others for tons of different classes and types of cars, but it takes a bit of time to track them down, get accepted, and get your desires out.

The local paper can have options, but they're usually pretty limited. Just whatever some random person happens to have that week or whatever.

Random old junkyards can have stuff, but junkyard conditions vary so much. Some are like purgatory, where cars go to sit for decades on the off chance someone comes to pick them over. Usually the old, weed filled yards are just parts yards full of scrap. But "U-pull-it" type places, usually in the city, are constantly cycling through models, only leaving them out for a few months before they're stripped clean and the carcass is scrapped. Those modern ones would be a good place to find a late model wreck, or a car that's not in too bad of a starting condition.

I know c-stores and gas stations used to always carry The Swap Sheet type periodicals that offered tons of different cars from different areas in all manner of condition. I can't say I've seen one lately, but I also haven't been looking. Mayhap the internet killed that off, I dunno.

There's always hoofin' it, too. Sometimes just driving / biking around, eyes open, will lead you to a find. The first car I almost bought for racing was just something I saw while driving, and I continue to see a ton more. The Sheriff's '73 Cuda that is finally getting finished this week was something he glanced under a tarp while cruising by. He decided to stop and inquire about the tarp, found a complete 'Cuda with all its parts underneath, and a widow that just wanted it gone. Find of the freaking century.

And then there's just Google. There's tons of CL type sites out there not as well known, tons of iSwap Sheets. Just type it in and let your fingers take you where they may.

Looks great Face! Thanks for sharing.

FrGamble, I think you should stick with what you know, rather than learning as you go. The benefit of working in an apprentice situation, is that someone is a craftsman, and the others benefit from imparted knowledge. If you are all apprentices.... well, there is the wise example of the blind leading the blind...

You are great with the numbers. Maybe solicit micro-loans and teach the kids how to start their own businesses? It is probably a better use of your talents.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Looks great Face! Thanks for sharing.

FrGamble, I think you should stick with what you know, rather than learning as you go. The benefit of working in an apprentice situation, is that someone is a craftsman, and the others benefit from imparted knowledge. If you are all apprentices.... well, there is the wise example of the blind leading the blind...

You are great with the numbers. Maybe solicit micro-loans and teach the kids how to start their own businesses? It is probably a better use of your talents.

Aye kind of has a point, a sort of "too many Indians, not enough Chiefs" scenario. It can get frustrating running seat-of-the-pants, because there's no one there to help you when you get stuck.

Then again, no one got anything by waiting. My car isn't technically "finished", but I wouldn't have it at all had I not just got down to work and decided I was going to make it.

I say go for it. Just realize what you're getting into, and remember it's ok to say "that's Good Enough" ;)

Quote: Face

Aye kind of has a point, a sort of "too many Indians, not enough Chiefs" scenario. It can get frustrating running seat-of-the-pants, because there's no one there to help you when you get stuck.

Then again, no one got anything by waiting. My car isn't technically "finished", but I wouldn't have it at all had I not just got down to work and decided I was going to make it.

I say go for it. Just realize what you're getting into, and remember it's ok to say "that's Good Enough" ;)

But where would you be without the Sheriff, your Father In-Law, or even the "Honda Guy"? It doesn't sound like FrG has a goto right now.

Yeah you are right I don't have a go to guy right now, one might come out of the woodwork. I do love learning new things and trying desperately to find new ways to reach kids that the normal Church youth group stuff might never reach. I'll try to keep you updated on my progress with this somewhat crazy idea.