Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

Much of what surrounds Jesus life is hearsay. But it
doesn't matter, it's all about faith. What's the difference
if it really happened, you have faith that it did. You
give it relevance, your Church promotes it, you want
it to be true. Whether it is or not has nothing to do
with anything. It makes you happy, it's keeps you going,
it forces you to help others. What's wrong with that.
Imagine how boring life would be if there was only
one religion, one point of view.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophy.". Shakespeare

Take something you believe in very much and that you value. Let's say you have faith that you are truly the son of your mom and dad. If I said to you it doesn't really matter if that is actually true or not, what would you think? It's nice that you believe that and it gives you comfort and makes you happy, it forces you to try to do good to make them proud. You want it to be true and what is wrong with that? I don't know about you but I find that idea offensive.

"If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you still in your sins. Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all" 1Cor. 15:17-19

I think what EvenBob has been saying and what I am struggling with, too, is making the assumption that the bible is correct in everything it states and the historical account. It is circular. To fully become a Christian, most christian doctrines demand that you believe that everything in the bible is the Word of God and must be true.

Yet, with scientific progress, we've discovered that the earth is far older than 6,000 years and that God didn't create the universe and did all of the things He said he did in 6 days. It is also impossible for Noah to have two of every species on the planet in the boat, yet these are hearkened as truth.

The major leap of faith, then, that we as Christians have to make, is believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead. That we can only believe through faith alone and the eyewitness accounts of a few men and Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20-21, Acts I.

What bothers me as well is the Christian assumption that Christianity is the only path to a "good afterlife", which I cannot believe is true, no matter how much I think about it. It is impossible for Christianity to reach all people, and I cannot believe that people who don't have the opportunity to learn about Christianity (North Koreans, for example, and a hellofalot of people in Africa) will be relegated to hell or some other place. I also think about other cultures on other planets without a Christ -- what happens to them? An I look at other religions on this earth: the Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and I think that there must be some way for them to have a positive afterlife without believing that Jesus Christ is their savior.

Now, of course, I know what the standard reply will be: "If you don't believe in Christ, you are a sinner, and have not been forgiven for sins, and therefore won't go to heaven". But God's entrance to heaven is through His grace alone, so there must be room based on the old testament for people to get into heaven without believing in Christ? I dunno... something I can talk to my pastor about. And then the reference becomes circular again, because you rely on the bible to be a true statement of fact.

So, then, if I believe that there are positive afterlives available in this Universe, then how can I evangelize, which is what all good Christians must do?

Quote: boymimbo

I think what EvenBob has been saying and what I am struggling with, too, is making the assumption that the bible is correct in everything it states and the historical account. It is circular. To fully become a Christian, most christian doctrines demand that you believe that everything in the bible is the Word of God and must be true.

Yet, with scientific progress, we've discovered that the earth is far older than 6,000 years and that God didn't create the universe and did all of the things He said he did in 6 days. It is also impossible for Noah to have two of every species on the planet in the boat, yet these are hearkened as truth.

If this is what you are worried about, please don't. The Bible never says the Earth is only 6,000 years old, modern cosmology continues to show that the universe did have a beginning and therefore a creator, and the Noah story also does not need to be taken literally.

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The major leap of faith, then, that we as Christians have to make, is believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead. That we can only believe through faith alone and the eyewitness accounts of a few men and Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20-21, Acts I.

The Resurrection is one of the surest facts of the Bible and human history. We are not talking about a few men, we are talking about hundreds of people who saw the Resurrected Jesus. The other thing to keep in mind is that the Apostles were so convinced about the reality of Jesus' Resurrection that they were all willing to die for it, and all but one did. They and many others were on fire for the faith and in the midst of great persecution the faith spread all around the known world at the time. This simply wouldn't happen if the Resurrection was hearsay or made-up. There really is no other explanation for the rapid and unstoppable spread of Christianity expect for the conviction and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Quote:

What bothers me as well is the Christian assumption that Christianity is the only path to a "good afterlife", which I cannot believe is true, no matter how much I think about it. It is impossible for Christianity to reach all people, and I cannot believe that people who don't have the opportunity to learn about Christianity (North Koreans, for example, and a hellofalot of people in Africa) will be relegated to hell or some other place. I also think about other cultures on other planets without a Christ -- what happens to them? An I look at other religions on this earth: the Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and I think that there must be some way for them to have a positive afterlife without believing that Jesus Christ is their savior.

Now, of course, I know what the standard reply will be: "If you don't believe in Christ, you are a sinner, and have not been forgiven for sins, and therefore won't go to heaven". But God's entrance to heaven is through His grace alone, so there must be room based on the old testament for people to get into heaven without believing in Christ? I dunno... something I can talk to my pastor about. And then the reference becomes circular again, because you rely on the bible to be a true statement of fact.

Just use your brain, do you think God would condemn all these people to hell for no fault of their own? How could you reconcile that with all that Jesus teaches? The sure and safest path to salvation is indeed through Jesus Christ, but if for no fault of their own (folks in Old Testament, deserted islands, those who never hear the Gospel, etc.) people do not come to know Jesus but live a good and moral life - we can easily hope they are saved.

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So, then, if I believe that there are positive afterlives available in this Universe, then how can I evangelize, which is what all good Christians must do?

Evangelize because you love the person of Jesus Christ and want others to experience His presence and help in their lives. Belief in Jesus is not just good for us eternally it helps people right now in the present moments of their lives.

Quote: FrGamble

Take something you believe in very much and that you value. Let's say you have faith that you are truly the son of your mom and dad. If I said to you it doesn't really matter if that is actually true or not, what would you think? It's nice that you believe that and it gives you comfort and makes you happy, it forces you to try to do good to make them proud. You want it to be true and what is wrong with that? I don't know about you but I find that idea offensive.

Careful. This could be interpreted as saying an adopted child should feel her adoptive parents have been deceiving, lying and cheating her for years.

Quote: FrGamble

If this is what you are worried about, please don't. The Bible never says the Earth is only 6,000 years old, modern cosmology continues to show that the universe did have a beginning and therefore a creator, and the Noah story also does not need to be taken literally.

Actually, if God created Adam on Day 6, then, according to the bible, the Universe is 6,000 or so years old.

Quote:

The Resurrection is one of the surest facts of the Bible and human history. We are not talking about a few men, we are talking about hundreds of people who saw the Resurrected Jesus. The other thing to keep in mind is that the Apostles were so convinced about the reality of Jesus' Resurrection that they were all willing to die for it, and all but one did.

The event is only recorded in the bible and not by other historians. Millions of Muslims died for Mohammed too, they were just as fervent as believers, yet Christians invalidate that religion. And what do you do with the Jews that don't believe that Jesus Christ is the saviour?

Quote:

Just use your brain, do you think God would condemn all these people to hell for no fault of their own? How could you reconcile that with all that Jesus teaches? The sure and safest path to salvation is indeed through Jesus Christ, but if for no fault of their own (folks in Old Testament, deserted islands, those who never hear the Gospel, etc.) people do not come to know Jesus but live a good and moral life - we can easily hope they are saved.

I am using my brain. So, if you hear about Jesus, but reject Him, what happens to you? If believing in Jesus Christ is your salvation, then what is "not believing" yield. What is the criteria for saving then? It's not listed in the bible specifically, is it?

Quote: boymimbo

I am using my brain. So, if you hear about Jesus, but reject Him, what happens to you?

Matthew 10:33 was what I always thought. Seems pretty clear, although I haven't gotten a hang of this whole literal vs allegorical thing yet

Quote: FrGamble

The Resurrection is one of the surest facts of the Bible and human history. We are not talking about a few men, we are talking about hundreds of people who saw the Resurrected Jesus.

As many or more people "witnessed" the deeds of Zeus, Apollo, Ares, Hera, Athena, Aphrodite, etc. The various Egyptian gods owned property in Egypt. Does this all mean their existence is proved beyond question? Or merely that their adherents claimed it?

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There really is no other explanation for the rapid and unstoppable spread of Christianity expect for the conviction and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

How about authority?

In the climax of one of Rome's many periods of internal war, Constantine claimed to have had a vision, in a dream, where Jesus instructed him to adopt the Labarum as his symbol, and then told him to conquer "under this sign." This is rather contrary to just about all else I know about Jesus, but perfectly in character for an ambitious, superstitious Roman emperor. And indeed Constantine went on to defeat his rivals carrying the Labarum, and establish himself as sole emperor of the Roman Empire.

Among other things, he set up Christianity as the state religion, which was a revolutionary step for any Roman to take. While he also decreed toleration of other religions, including the informal paganism of the majority, Christinas were favored over others when ti came to jobs and advancement in the Imperial adminsitration, advancement in the army and overall social favor. He also sponsored the first of a long, long series of Church Councils at Nicea.

Small surprise it spread.

Quote:

Just use your brain, do you think God would condemn all these people to hell for no fault of their own?

Yes. Emphatically yes.

Whatever its value and flaws, the Bible cannot help but be part of the times in which it was written. The ancient world was a brutal, unforgiving place. Deities were capricious and largely unconcerned with Earthly matters. Christians can claim God loves humans so much he sent his only son, etc, but that doens't change the fact that events in the world don't seem to make sense in light of a loving, all-powerful god, unless he were largely unconcerend with Earthly amtters as well. So there are rationalizations instead. "God does what he wants, not what we want." "God gives you what you need, not what you want." And my favorite "God moves in mysterious ways."

Ah, but then why send Jesus down? Did I not say the gods are a capricious lot? The Bible god fits right in.

Consider, too, the cultural atmosphere of the time. Each civilization deemed itself the greatest, bar none, and all others to be inferior. The only reason Rome accepted others as equals is they were assimialted, or Romanized, before being accepted into positions of authority.

So the belief that there is one and only one path to follow fits culturally at the time, and carries over for centuries. It explains such displays of Christian love as forcibly converting others, and showing all the tolerance of Judaism, Islam and other relgions that the pagan Romans had shown towards Christianity, including the sporadic persecutions.

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How could you reconcile that with all that Jesus teaches?

How can you reconcile the Crusades, the Inquisition and much of what took place in the Americas?

The fact is Christians have had to adapt their doctrine and practice to the changing culture. If a Pope were to call for a Crusade today, he'd be laughed out of office. If he were serious, he'd get something a bit worse than ridicule for his troubles. Hell, even if he were to call for a peaceful campaign to convert all the Jews, Hindus, Buddhits, Muslims, Shinto, etc to Catholicism, he'd be considered insane.

In fact, less than a century hence we'll likely see same-sex marriages blessed by the Catholic church.

Good replies everybody and thank God I am sick as a dog and can try to answer some of them today.

Islam is also a historical religion and I don't think any serious student of history doubts that there was indeed a person Muhammad, just like no one seriously doubts the historical person of Jesus of Nazareth existed. The fact that Islam is also spreading signifies that it too is grounded in verifiable history even though for a Christian it does not have the truth about who Jesus Christ is.


I want to put some people at ease and let you know that it takes more than just hearing the name of Jesus at some point in your life to all the sudden burden you with believe in Him or go to Hell. Along with hearing the Gospel message you need to have credible witnesses to the person of Jesus. More atheists are created by bad Christians than Dawkins could ever dream of. It is not someone's fault if their experience of Christianity was brutal, disgusting, and hypocritical. Heck, God knows where I would be if that was the case for me. When I meet someone vehemently against the Church or God it is always something "we" did as Christians to shoot ourselves in the foot. There is no judgement for the non-believer in this case but WOE to the believer who cause another to sin or be led astray!!!


We have got to get over the idea that God as He reveals Himself in the OT is some evil tyrant akin to the sad history of gods throughout pagan religions. That is simply not true! The vast majority of the Old Testament is a story of a sensitive God who hears the cries of an oppressed people, sticks with them through thick and thin, and then opens this special relationship with God to all the world. As s2dbaker would say, Read your Bible!

Quote: Nareed

The fact is Christians have had to adapt their doctrine and practice to the changing culture. If a Pope were to call for a Crusade today, he'd be laughed out of office. If he were serious, he'd get something a bit worse than ridicule for his troubles. Hell, even if he were to call for a peaceful campaign to convert all the Jews, Hindus, Buddhits, Muslims, Shinto, etc to Catholicism, he'd be considered insane.

Ha! This peaceful campaign to convert the world is exactly what the Pope is calling for, it is called the "New Evangelization". Obviously the content of the Gospel is the same but in connection to your point about changing with the culture there needs to be new methods, new agents, new expressions, and a new ardor if the love of Jesus Christ is to answer the hurt and pain of a world confused and frustrated by life.

Quote: FrGamble

Take something you believe in very much and that you value. Let's say you have faith that you are truly the son of your mom and dad. If I said to you it doesn't really matter if that is actually true or not, what would you think?

Happens all the time with adopted people.
They aren't even related to their parents
yet have the same feelings towards them
as if they were the birth parents. I believe
Jesus meant all the good stuff he said, why
does it matter if a lot of the mumbo jumbo
surrounding him is urban legend. Your
faith is based on what he said and what you
think that made him. What's the difference
if he performed some corny magic tricks or
not. It has nothing to do with anything.